| TheyCallMeBruce |
Here are the results I promised a couple of months ago.
Kind of an apples and oranges comparison (different brand and viscosity), but my choice was between the apples I've been using, Mobil1 5w-30, and switching to oranges, Amsoil Syn XL-7500 5w-20.
This was after 2,500 miles on each oil, double flushed w/ new filter each time between the two lubricants.
I will be making my switch to 5w-20 synthetic permanent, even though I have an '01.
Be advised: on Acura's current oil recommendation chart for dealers they continue to recommend 5w-30 for '01 & '02 MDX, and 5w-20 for '03 only.
My deviation from the recommended viscosity is based on test results specifically for Amsoil's synthetic 5w-20. I wouldn't dare switching to petroleum based 5w-20 in an '01 or '02 without an oil analysis. |
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| DaleB |
For the hair splitting differences, even cost excluded, I will stick to the 5-30 recommendation.
Analysis, shmalysis, "Drive, he said...." |
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| BaldEagle |
| What do all those numbers mean? Why such a variance in the Boron and Molybdenum totals?:8: |
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| TheyCallMeBruce |
quote:
Originally posted by BaldEagle
What do all those numbers mean? Why such a variance in the Boron and Molybdenum totals?:8:
I'm no oil expert. I'm sure a petroleum chemist on this forum can provide more insight. Common sense tells me . . .
the fewer metallic particles like iron and aluminum in the oil, the better.
I have no clue what boron is doing in the oil. MS Encarta says:
It is a trace element needed for plant growth, but toxic in excess. Research suggests that it is also nutritionally important for bone health in humans and other vertebrates. . . .The boron compounds of industrial importance include borax (Na2 B4O7· 10H20), boric acid (H3BO 3), and boron carbide (B4C). Borax is used in cleaning compounds, glass and ceramics, fertilizers, paper and paints, and fire retardants. Boric acid is used medically for its astringent and antiseptic properties. Boron carbide is used as an abrasive and alloying agent.
Okay, I must admit the Mobil1 halfway filled a super clean (alcohol rubbed) glass jar for almost a week, and since borax is used in glass . . . who knows? As for molybdenum, is it not a lubricant additive? I'll wait for our web-resident specialists to explain.
My purpose in undertaking these tests was not to dissect the chemical properties of these competing oils, but rather to answer the question in a quantitative manner: "Will using 5w-20 oil, when the manufacturer clearly states a recommendation of 5w-30, damage my engine?" I didn't want to keep guessing and I didn't want to add my voice to the threads of ignorant passion I've come across. Opinions about lubricants need to have some basis in fact rather than pure speculation. "I like this oil, I like that oil, that weight is too thin, too thick, its got super mysterious additives . . ." blah blah bleh blah
It helps answer the question: "But how do you know?"
If the oil you use consistently resulted in a 50% increase in iron particles in your drained oil compared to the next brand, would you continue to use it? Especially if the cost of the alternative was slightly lower or the same? I don't know if I'm actually reducing metal wear by 50% until I've completed several more tests over a long period of time, but at least I know I'm in the right direction. I'm convinced it is a superior oil, regardless of the degree. To each his own. But at least you can't say no one has been able to produce numbers. |
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| TheWorm |
TCMB,
Thanks for that post. Moly and Boron are part of M1's additive packages. So is magnesium.
100 to 200ppm of iron is an acceptable level
10 to 30ppm of alumunim is considered acceptable.
10 to 30ppm of chromium (ditto...)
sources: www.bobistheoilguy.com and www.blackstone-labs.com
There *could* be a diff between the two, or there *could* be *no* relevant difference. I suppose either would support your decision ;)
Can you post the full results, like viscosity, flashpoint & insoluble %? |
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| Robyjo |
OK, I haven't been around in a while, but who the hell would say acuramdx.org has run out of gas after a post like this one? Good stuff, Bruce!
Rob :31: |
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| DaleB |
| It's an interesting insight into motor oils, however it only compares 2 brands. Who knows what we will find in the other 30 or 40 ones out there, namely non-synthetics which more drivers use. Just because they are non-synthetics does not mean they would not also exhibit interesting characteristics with regards to specific properties. |
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| TheyCallMeBruce |
quote:
Originally posted by TheWorm
TCMB,
Thanks for that post. Moly and Boron are part of M1's additive packages. So is magnesium.
100 to 200ppm of iron is an acceptable level
10 to 30ppm of alumunim is considered acceptable.
10 to 30ppm of chromium (ditto...)
sources: www.bobistheoilguy.com and www.blackstone-labs.com
There *could* be a diff between the two, or there *could* be *no* relevant difference. I suppose either would support your decision ;)
Can you post the full results, like viscosity, flashpoint & insoluble %?
Worm,
Sorry, but I was not provided with flashpoint and insoluble%. I did revise the chart to include the viscosity and TBN results omitted earlier. Thanks for the links, very informative. |
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| TheWorm |
Thanks for the additional info posted, TCMB. I'm still way down on the learning curve for this stuff.
I *think* the viscosity numbers you posted would indicate that the Amsoil "held up better" since it's acceptable vs the M1's marginal ranking. Perhaps likewise for the TBN numbers.
Tough to tell as we don't know the "new oil" numbers for either. I suppose (in retrospect, of course) that a preferable test would be testing the same viscosity of both brands (M1 5/30 vs Amsoil 5/30) or different viscosities of the same brand (Amsoil 5/30 vs Amsoil 5/20) to reduce the co-mingled variables in different additive packages and design/flow characteristics.
Of course, now we're all trying to draw conclusions (e.g. comparing brand to brand) based on your data that your testing wasn't intended to answer...but based on your original question ("can I use 5/20?") there doesn't appear to be any adverse impact from doing so, at least with the Amsoil.
Out of curiosity, are you running a severe service schedule on your X?
Interesting information and much appreciated, of course. Oh, let us know which lab you used and the co$t, too :) |
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| Dale MDX |
I wouldn't even begin to conclude that the M1 didn't hold up well based on its "marginal" rating. That's only an indication of where it falls on the viscosity scale as used oil. It may have had exactly the same "marginal" rating as a brand new oil. Not all 5W-30 oils have identical viscosity when new. They should be close, but synthetics in particular are a little different in their viscosity and "pour" characteristics. Note that the M1 viscosity index is higher than the Amsoil, so if one is worried about the M1 being too low, the Amsoil is even lower! Synthetics, including M1, have an apparently deserved reputation for holding up for well over 10,000 or even 20,000 miles, so I very much doubt there would be a problem after 2,500.
Also, like Worm was getting at, I would be very careful in making conclusions from a metal content of 2 vs. 3 (or similar). Firstly, the analytical results are rounded. One may really have been 2.4 and the other 2.6 (or 1.6 and 3.4, of course). Secondly, there's a lot of inherent error in these analyses, especially at low contaminant levels. The machine can say "3" when the answer would be "1" on a second test.
The chances that using a 5W-20 oil will actually "harm" an engine with a 5W-30 spec. are probably zero. Especially since Honda keeps waffling on which oil to use. It just MIGHT be the case that over 200,000 miles or something, the 5W-20 will lead to more engine wear. It for sure wouldn't show up in a 2,500 mile or even 10,000 mile test, in my opinion.
Personally, I'll keep using 5W-30, mostly because where I live the summers are very hot, and I think the "30" part of the spec. will be useful.
My other car, a Civic Hybrid, requires 0W-20 oil! Now that's thin! And unfortunately, currently only available from Honda at 3.75 per qt. MSRP. At least it only needs around 3 1/2 qts. per change. |
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| laborlitigator |
| OK, my head is hurting |
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| TheWorm |
Good points DaleMDX. w/r/t the viscosity numbers, I said "Tough to tell as we don't know the "new oil" numbers for either". Probably should have said "impossible to tell..." as you're right on. The M1 could have started and ended the same run w/the exact same number (ditto for the Amsoil). Especially since one of the bennies of sythetics is that they maintain their original viscosity for a longer period of time than dino.
Do we know whether that acceptable viscosity range on the report (that results in the marginal/acceptable/etc rating) is for synthethics, dinos, or both? Might make a difference.
Probably should reiterate we're not intending to bash TCMB's results or their validity, just having some interesting oil-related discussion as a result :29: |
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| TheyCallMeBruce |
quote:
Originally posted by TheWorm
Probably should reiterate we're not intending to bash TCMB's results or their validity, just having some interesting oil-related discussion as a result :29:
I'm taking it all very well. I just love stirring up some controversy. Keeps all our brains excercised. On other boards & newsgroups I participate in, people are not as civilized; they tend to get personal, get offended, and then offend others through various forms of bashing.
If your brain hurts, it means it got a good workout! |
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| mdxxxx |
TheyCallMeBruce,
Thanks for the info, interesting data and analysis.
:4: |
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| AcuraTLSFan |
Summery for newbies.
Using 5W-20 or 5W-30 there is virtually no differnce. Before 2001, there was no 5W-20....during the 2001 year when the 2002 models were released, two manuf. started using 5w-20, Honda and Ford.
The oil rating tells you two things, the rate that it flows, and at what temperature. The lower number "5" tells you the value for lower temperature (40 degrees C) and the "20 or 30" tells you the value for higher temperature (100 degress C) . So the "30" will be thicker than the "20" at higher temps.
The reason they switched to 5W-20 is for fuel efficency. It's thinner at higher temp, giving you less friction so it's "suppose" to save gas. The reason why honda decided to switch to the "20" in 03 is because the U.S. Govn't is pushing every SUV manuf. to make ther SUV more effiecent. So in response Honda/Acura switced the "30" to "20"....There is no other reason why honda switch from "30" to "20" other than fuel efficency.
As for Mobil 1 or Amsoil. You guys all heard of Mobil vs Castrol back in 1998...
*review: Oils are divided into 5 groups, Group I, II, III, IV, V. The first 3 groups are non-synthetic or partially synth. while group 4,5 are synth with curtain additives. Well, Castrol had an "enhanced" version of group 3, which is not fully synth...but they labeled it full synth., well mobil sued them *mobil 1 is made from group IV,V. Well, Castrol won *shocked everyone*....so now group III oils can now be call synth.
Mobil 1 was using group IV and V oil BEFORE the settlement...after the settlement, Castrol still used group III, Mobil 1 changed their formula, they made it cheaper to compete with castrol, so it's worse now. I don't know what they are using now.
Amsoil on the other hand is different...the Amsoil 100% Syntheic is from group IV and V. HOWEVER, the new XL-7500 is an "enhanced" group III, just like Castrol. THey also have to cut cost to be competitive. The differnce between the 2 is that the 100% Synthetic is NOT API certified and the XL-7500 is certified. Being not API certified isn't a bad thing. Ester is an additive added to oil, it's a rust and oxidation inhibitor...but having too much is not good. Most ppl think that amsoil has more ester than is limited for API cert.
What i would use? I would use the 5w-30. WHY? First, becuase of % weight loss; Second, it's thicker. 5w-20 is thinner, it will burn/vaporize more than 5w-30. The 5w-30 is thicker so it will protect a bit better give you less wear than the 5w-20.
I don't know why some of you would not use 5w-20 on 01 or 02 models...it's the same engine, nothing changed...so why wouldn't u? I don't have a MDX, but my family has 3 Acura TL (99 TL, 01 TL, 02 TL-S)...and i've already gone through this debate. I just use Amsoil 5w-30 for all of them. I change them around 6000-7000 miles, even though it's rated at 12,500. Why? Because oil filters aren't made to last 12,500, ur oil filter will probably rupture by then, even the good ones. And i drive in "server conditions" |
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| inky |
Very good summary, Thanks!
I wonder how Royal Purple comes out in the mix. I am between Amsoil, Mobil One and Royal Purple. I am using the XL 7500 now from Amsoil. |
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| DaleB |
Good analyss, Fan. However, 'thinner' oil which you imply provides less protection does also assure faster flow in colder climates which is important for those using their vehicles in colder climes. It is possible they would do fine at warm up with a 20 weight oil, vs. 30 weight for protection.
But in a warmer season could always switch to 5-30. In more temperate zones, 5-30 should serve well all year around.
I still don't see anything that conclusive as to M1's 'inferority' compared with any other synthetic including Amsoil. When you try to apply the differences to real-world scenarios (out of the test lab) I think they are more academic than meaningful.
When one considers the price point, wide availability, and the over-kill characterisitc of any major synthetic over conventional oil, the use of any 'name brand' synthetic including a changeout at 5K, should suffice most any demand imaginable placed on the vehicle.
And what about Redline? Do you have any info on it? I am surprised it gets so little attention by the 'rodders' on here. Although, it is discussed to some degree in older posts. |
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| AcuraTLSFan |
DaleB,
thinner oils do flow faster in colder climites...but 5w-20 and 5w-30 both have the same low temp rating of 5, so they both perform the same at lower temps, the only difference is how they perform at higher temps.
I didn't concluded that Mobil 1 was inferior to other brands...what i stated was that the current mobil 1 is inferior to it's past formulation. It's just in my "opinion" that i was personally use Amsoil and not Mobil 1. The performance difference might be virtually unoticable, but the cost difference might be issue.
Redline is one of the less well known sythn oil manuf. Redline is in the same class as Amsoil, Mobil 1, Royal Purple...etc...The reason why it's not well known is because it's $8/quart!!!! Twice as their competitors. I'm not saying that its not worth $8, what i'm saying is that it's not worth $8 for me to buy. For everyday driving and causal sport/race driving...Amsoil, Mobil 1 will do the job just fine. But if you are a serious racer or competitor then i suggest you look into Redline, it is design for those enviroments. |
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| AcuraMDX2002 |
| This thread makes for great reading -- thanks! Keep it coming (you'll notice that I have nothing to offer, but greatly appreciate those who do!) |
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| DaleB |
AcuraTLSFan
I agree on all your points. I believe you are talking about higher environmental temperatures. I am saying you would have sufficient protection driving around where it's 40F and using 20W vs. where 'outside' temps would climb much higher.
Yes, Redline is very expensive. That's largely offset by very long drain intervals for normal applications, vs. changing it with every race. But something about such extended drain intervals that does not give me a warm & fuzzy feeling. |
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| TheWorm |
quote:
Originally posted by AcuraTLSFan
Mobil 1 was using group IV and V oil BEFORE the settlement...after the settlement, Castrol still used group III, Mobil 1 changed their formula, they made it cheaper to compete with castrol, so it's worse now. I don't know what they are using now.
M1 is a Group IV/V now. |
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| AcuraTLSFan |
Yes, Amsoil and Redline do advertise LONGER drain intervals than other synth brands. I also share ur opinion that leaving oil in there for 25,000 miles doesn't give me a warm & fuzzy feeling neither.
The magic word that all companies use is "UP TO ---"...so we have to define how long our application can be used "up to ---" If you left the oil in a 4 cylinder engine running at idle for 25,000 miles, i have no doubt that it would last 25,000 miles. But that's not our conditions, we are having cold/warm/hot starts, stop and go traffic, RPM thought the entire band, we put load on the engine...etc.. So this inturns 25,000 miles into some value we are unsure of. 20,000? 15,000? 10,000?
So just to be on the safe side of everything....i change it around 7,000. I know that oil isn't the only thing to consider, oil is only good if your oil filter is good. No point of having great oil when it's full of metal particles. Oil filters don't have a preset value as how long they last...they just tell you how effective the filters are and how much they can hold. So engines will have the oil flowing faster/slower, more/less at a time, different temps...there is alot of different variable for a "univeral" filter. I believe as well as many other people (car enthusiet, mechanics) that a good oil filter will be effective til 7500 miles max. So when i change my oil, might as well, change my oil.
TheWorm
"M1 is a Group IV/V now" Group IV/V still synth. but a MAJOR factor is the additives. |
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| TheWorm |
quote:
Originally posted by AcuraTLSFan
"M1 is a Group IV/V now" Group IV/V still synth. but a MAJOR factor is the additives.
Sorry, maybe I misinterpreted your previous post, but it sounded to me that you were saying M1 "downgraded" their group IV/V to a III after the Castrol lawsuit.
So you're saying that they changed their additive package and made it "worse"? I'm aware that folks weren't happy with their Tri-Syn and early batches of their SuperSyn. I haven't seen or heard anything but positive comments about their latest SuperSyn formulation. Do you have any specifics about 1) what changed and 2) what's the diff between M1, Amsoil and Redline in their present formulations?
IMO oil is such an incredibly cheap insurance policy, it's foolish to go beyond 7500 no matter what a vendor/mfr says, especially when you're under a warranty that requires 7500 maintenance intervals (at the longest). It cost me $25 for an M1 LOF. Less than a tank of gas. Even with the more expensive Amsoil or Redline change, I can't imagine it'd even be possible to crack 40 bucks.
The good part about M1 is that it's readily available off-the-shelf, and, even if it's "inferior" to other more expensive synthetics, it probably makes little difference when you're draining and changing every 7500. There's probably a larger difference between a dino and synthetic @ 7500 intervals than between the various synthetics @ 7500, at least for the way an MDX is driven. Or maybe not -- could be more of a diff betw brands based on additive packages than dino group vs. syn group as I think your "additive formulation" comment might suggest.
w/r/t advertising longer drain intervals. Isn't "advertise" the keyword there? Do they *guarantee* engine performance, longevity, and warranty coverage? When I take my Lexus 6cyl in with 15k since the last change, and have sludge, who's paying for the new engine? (I don't know the answer, I'm asking). |
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| DaleB |
This is always such an interesting discussion, and we are fortunate to have so many members with a wide variety of experiences and knowledge.
But after reading all these topics, and viewing charts, and pictures of sliced up oil filters, I wonder how I was able to obtain such high mileage on previous cars, even with conventional oils and typically the manufacturer's oil filter or the Fram replacement.
When I sold them they never had evidence of excessive oil consumption or poor compression.
Now we can use off the shelf lubricants that far exceed the older ones. I believe regular maintenance, and sticking with recognized brands of lubricants and filters makes the biggest difference of all. |
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| AcuraTLSFan |
sorry if i made myself unclear...mobil 1 is still using group IV/V oil base. I used the word "worse" relatively....that their new formulation is "worse" then their old formulation. If you do searches online and around other car forums acura-cl.com. acura-tl.com and other car manuf forums you will see many people and critics switching to amsoil and other brands. Of course i don't have any specific details about what they changed, i don' t think mobil one would ever release sensitive information like that, but TheyCallMeBruce oil analysis as well as other test show that mobil one isn't as "good" as other brands.
When you take a look at the chart, you see that they the numbers are very small and only differ by a little...but when you analyize the data, it tells u it's much more. Take a look at Iron: Mobil 1 = 6 Amsoil = 4. Well Mobil 1 is 50% worse than Amsoil (6-4 =2; 2/4 = 50%), same goes for the other catigories. 50% is A LOT!
U can use the comparasion that oil is cheap insurance...like many others do. But what does it insure you against? Engine dying? Longevity? Performance loss? Would leaving ur oil for more than 7500 damage ur engine? Speaking from past experience...the effects of changing your oil longer than 7500 is minimal. We have two 89 toyota camry, my parents didn't maintain it very well, sometimes they would forget about changing the oil, and then they pasted the car down to me (9 year old car now), now oil leaks like any old car....oil leaks, so i would be low on oil often, i would forget about filling it up because of school...so now i have sludge and stuff in there...the car now belongs to my sister (i got a 02 TL-S now), she drives it, without the slightesh engine problem whatsoever, the car is 13 years old! I don't suggest you guys do this, but you see what i mean. My point is even if you leave it in for 8000 miles, the differnce is so small it's basically neglectable. I don't believe any with major negative affects would happen...that's even if you keep ur car for 13 years.
Amsoil prices are just along side with Mobil 1 prices, but it's not readly avalible like mobil 1 is. Redline is the expensive one. I usually buy 1 years worth at a time.
There are lot of things that are recommended in the car manual...the manual recommendations is already "cheap insurance." They recommend you to change every 3,750 miles, (server conditions), but u can change it at 5,000 and have no problem. So the manuf is aready cutting the drain interval, and you again are cutting the drain interval. They also recommend you to check ur tie rod, steering gear box, suspesion every 7,500 miles...well this is FREE...this is insurance on ur LIFE...you can check it every 3,000 miles for cheap insurance to make sure there is no potential for any problems or accidents, but how many of use actually do that? It also recommends you to check all fluid and oil at EVERY refueling...i doubt many of use ever do that either . Recommendations are just recommendations, in the end, it's just common sense that tells you what to do. Car manuf. recommend you to change every 3,750 miles and ur oil manfu recommend you chage ever 12,000 miles, who do you listen too?
Sorry to hear about ur lexus, i also heard about toyota/lexus V6 engines getting sludge...in this case the recommandations was wrong...should've listen to common sense. If you car isn't under warrenty any more....the dealer should give you a "dealer good will warrenty service", since they know it's their fault.
There are alot of articles online stating that dino oil can be used saftly for 5,000 miles. The reason why car manuf. "recommend" 3,000 is for cheap insurance...they say this just boost our dependence on oil. A lot of car forum and enthusist have read/bought the "motor oil bible"...it's all about motor oil, every brand, every spec, every fact and every myth about more oil. http://www.motor-oil-bible.com/index2.html
In the end....doesn't matter if you use mobil 1, amsoil, or redline... you are probably gonna get the same results. 6 iron particales per million compared to 4 iron ppm probably wouldn't make the least difference. It's just what u prefer...u like amsoil, buy amsoil, u like mobil 1, buy mobil 1. Let me put it this way...buying a AMD XP 2000+ or a Intel P4 2.1 Ghz probably wouldn't make the least difference is you are using it to post stuff on forums, but buying the P4 2.1 Ghz probably give your computer a service life of 1 month longer than the AMD XP before they become obsolete when the P5 comes out. |
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| AcuraTLSFan |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
This is always such an interesting discussion, and we are fortunate to have so many members with a wide variety of experiences and knowledge.
I agree with you...what i usually do is try to surf a variety of forums to get a grasp of a bit of every conecpt and other prospective about thing...don't just keep it limited to honda/acuras or just SUV.
I own a TL, i just join this forum, only have 4 post. But i usually go around, audi, nissan, toyota, bmw...etc. some thing i "recommend" to you guys =)
Especailly, check out the competitors of the MDX, like the MB ML, or BMW x5, Ford explorers...most of the times you will find them talk $HIT about the MDX, it's because they are jealous. |
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| BlueStreak |
Man, this topic has been beat to death!
The bottom line, and I think everyone agrees:
1. Oil today is much better than oil of 3-5 years ago. No question about it. It lubricates and holds up better than ever before.
2. The key to keeping any machine running with minimal problems; car, truck, mfg equipment, etc. is regular preventative maint.
3. By doing regular maintenance and using a good oil, your machine will perform well. The key is regular maint. performed at regular intervals.
4. Oil is cheap. This doesn't mean you waste it with un-necessary changes, but in the grand scheme of things oil's cheap so there's no reason to drag out your oil changes.
My father in law's been driving his 1973 Dodge extended cab pick-up truck for almost 30 years now. He uses about the cheapest oil he can find (I've seen him buy it), provided it has a good API rating, and he's never had a problem. And the truck doesn't burn a drop nor has it had any oil related engine problem. This test, coupled with the fact he's a petroleum engineer, tells me he knows what he's talking about.
-Greg
03 SS/Quartz/Nav/Res
00 Dark Blue Vette Convertible |
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