| socalJD |
Hi All,
Looking for some feedback. Just did my DIY oil change over the weekend. When I drained my oil, I noticed that the crush washer was missing ! The last time the oil was changed was when the dealer did my 7,500 mile service. I was charged for the washer, so I never thought about actually checking for it. So 2 questions come to mind: 1) what actual/theoretical damage can happen due to not using the washer AND 2) what should I demand/accept from the dealer for this atrocity ??? TIA . . . the phone lines are now open . . . |
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| hammermdx |
quote:
Originally posted by socalJD
Hi All,
Looking for some feedback. Just did my DIY oil change over the weekend. When I drained my oil, I noticed that the crush washer was missing ! The last time the oil was changed was when the dealer did my 7,500 mile service. I was charged for the washer, so I never thought about actually checking for it. So 2 questions come to mind: 1) what actual/theoretical damage can happen due to not using the washer AND 2) what should I demand/accept from the dealer for this atrocity ??? TIA . . . the phone lines are now open . . .
Well, it's going to be your word against their word, so good luck! I would pick-up some crush washers from the dealer and install one asap (if you haven't already done so). Until you do, check the oil level as there might be some leaks around the drain plug. As long as the oil level is kept close to the fill mark there should be no damage. |
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| hammermdx |
| Oh and I forgot the most important part; stay away from "Dirtbag Dealers"!:3: |
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| Dale MDX |
I would assume that you're positive it wasn't firmly stuck to either the drain bolt or the oil pan? Sometimes the washers can look like part of one or the other, and they aren't loose like you'd expect.
However, if it was missing and there were no oil leaks, you have nothing to worry about that I can see. |
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| EXCALIBUR |
socalJD,
There should not be any real damage to your MDX. Check to make sure the oil drain bolt is okay and not stripped from being over tightened. Did you notice any oil leaking from the drain plug since your 7,500 mile service? If not, install a new crush washer and you should be fine. Good luck. :29: |
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| Blueflame |
quote:
Originally posted by Dale MDX
I would assume that you're positive it wasn't firmly stuck to either the drain bolt or the oil pan? Sometimes the washers can look like part of one or the other, and they aren't loose like you'd expect.
However, if it was missing and there were no oil leaks, you have nothing to worry about that I can see.
Re-check you drain bolt. No-leak, no problem. |
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| socalJD |
Hmmm, interesting, not the type of responses I was expecting. I guess the more militant members are on vacation or not bothering to reply . . . (paging Ardvarkus, Renov8r, Srpbep, et al)
As a follow up, yes, I'm certain the washer was not installed - checked the drain bolt before removing and noticed it was torqued a lot more than ususal. Since I'm changing the oil myself, I have crush washers and installed one with the new filter.
There was no oil leaking from the drain bolt before or after this oil change, so one can argue that the lack of a washer this one time had no effect, but that does not excuse the fact that the dealer tried to screw over a customer. Yes, I know it's only a $1.25, but its also the principle of the matter. How can I be sure they installed a brand new oil filter or used new oil and the proper viscosity ? Yes, it would be my word against theirs, but come on, would I waste my time to call the service dept on a 1.25 washer ? In my experience, if you smell smoke, it usually means that there is a fire somewhere . . . |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by socalJD
Hmmm, interesting, not the type of responses I was expecting. I guess the more militant members are on vacation or not bothering to reply . . . (paging Ardvarkus, Srpbep, et al)
As a follow up, yes, I'm certain the washer was not installed - checked the drain bolt before removing and noticed it was torqued a lot more than ususal. Since I'm changing the oil myself, I have crush washers and installed one with the new filter.
There was no oil leaking from the drain bolt before or after this oil change, so one can argue that the lack of a washer this one time had no effect, but that does not excuse the fact that the dealer tried to screw over a customer. Yes, I know it's only a $1.25, but its also the principle of the matter. How can I be sure they installed a brand new oil filter or used new oil and the proper viscosity ? Yes, it would be my word against theirs, but come on, would I waste my time to call the service dept on a 1.25 washer ? In my experience, if you smell smoke, it usually means that there is a fire somewhere . . .
With repeated use, the surfaces would have some wear and it would likely start leaking. Also, greater chance of over-torquing or stripping the threads without a washer/gasket. |
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| Dale MDX |
" Also, greater chance of over-torquing or stripping the threads without a washer/gasket."
I think over-torquing or stripping the threads without a washer would be likely if the "crush washer" were actually a crush washer or soft gasket. But the ones I have seen and used from Acura (Tim) are just aluminum washers, approx 1/16" thick. They aren't going to be significantly crushed, unless severely over-torqued (100 ft/lbs+? or whatever it would take to actually get the aluminum to "flow" out of the gap), and by then the bolt threads would be destroyed anyway. The torque spec. for the oil drain bolt is pretty low (29 ft-lb per the service manual, which calls the washer a washer, not a crush washer, if that means anything). They are nothing like the crush washers used on many spark plugs, that actually do crush due to the design. It looks to me like the primary purpose of the washer is to ensure the surfaces mate together, because the washer will bend slightly if needed, where the bolt and oil pan mating surface won't. It's my opinion that the torque on the threads is going to be the same with or without the washer. (Unless there's a visible leak and the mechanic "reefs" on the bolt to stop it, of course).
I would agree that if the surfaces are dirty, without a washer there would be more wear eventually. But unless lots and lots of oil leaks out, there would be no harm to anything in leaving the washer off once. Personally, I always ensure that the mating surfaces are wiped clean before reassembling. Dealership practices would vary. I wouldn't attempt it, but a car could probably live its whole life without this washer if the surfaces of the bolt and pan are properly machined.
Since the people that change oil at dealerships are generally the "newbies" or people that are hired just for that sort of work, I'd guess it was an accident that the washer was left off. Maybe the person didn't even know it was supposed to be there, or was in the habit of reusing the old ones and didn't notice it fell off. I'll just add this to the dozen or so reasons to change oil myself. |
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| TheWorm |
quote:
Originally posted by Dale MDX
[BI think over-torquing or stripping the threads without a washer would be likely if the "crush washer" were actually a crush washer or soft gasket. But the ones I have seen and used from Acura (Tim) are just aluminum washers, approx 1/16" thick. [/B]
If you look @ the washer from the side, you can see a line and two distinct types of metal, or at least the finish on them. IMO one of those is softer than the other -- hence the crush. In addition, when you remove them you can see the imprint from the area around the drain plug hole. Though I've never set a new and old one side-by-side to see if there's a difference in height, but I bet there is :)
If it weren't a true "crush" washer, then why does it take significantly more than 29 of torque to get it off? I'd estimate that you need to exert 2x to 3x the force to remove the bolts than when installing them. Would that be the case without a washer @ all? (just asking) |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by TheWorm
If you look @ the washer from the side, you can see a line and two distinct types of metal, or at least the finish on them. IMO one of those is softer than the other -- hence the crush. In addition, when you remove them you can see the imprint from the area around the drain plug hole. Though I've never set a new and old one side-by-side to see if there's a difference in height, but I bet there is :)
If it weren't a true "crush" washer, then why does it take significantly more than 29 of torque to get it off? I'd estimate that you need to exert 2x to 3x the force to remove the bolts than when installing them. Would that be the case without a washer @ all? (just asking)
Because it is 'softer' it does indeed allow more torque to be applied. That is if someone were to do it by feel rather than a torque wrench.
It is the fact that it is softer that has a sealing effect.
For something to seal, something has to 'give'. In this case, the washer.
The other advantage of a washer is to allow it to be torqued more evenly. There would be less play in effect, without a washer. Making the torque applied even more critical as the harder surfaces would have less latitude for error.
It is more difficult to loosen because of the friction involved, and the prestressing of the metal. The joint 'settles' if you will. By tightening, you are actually trying to meld the materials together. They actually do, at a molecular level. |
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| Dale MDX |
Just looked at a couple of brand new washers under magnification. I saw no visible line or evidence of 2 types of metal. There was a little bit of a ragged look around the edge of one side, which looks to me like evidence of being stamped out of a sheet of metal. Looks like all aluminum, or some alloy, to me. I've also never noticed a significant high-torque requirment in removing the bolt. There is a tendency of bolts and nuts to take a "set" and lock in place, possibly partly due to effects of dis-similar metals, plus the fact that metals do "creep" or flow over time. (The surfaces will come closer to matching each other on threads, etc., where when they are first torqued, only the "high points" will be in contact).
And actually, this is getting to the reason why wheel lug nuts/bolts should be retorqued, especially new ones. When first torqued, the torque value is reach because the high points of the imperfectly machined threads are in contact to a certain degree. Over time, the metal flows so more of the metal is in contact, and the high points are no longer high points. This has the effect of relaxing the torque. In other words, the bolt gets looser. (I've been learning a lot about this stuff at work lately, through a contract with some Ph.D. "bolt doctors.")
So, similarly, if this is all that is going on, an oil drain bolt could get a little bit looser over time also, instead of tighter. But I think there are other things at work here like effectively being "glued" in place over time for various reasons, which is why it might take a higher initial torque to remove. (Maybe something in oil even acts a little like Loctite over time).
Clearly, the aluminum washer seals any gap better than no washer at all, and it is softer than the bolt or oil pan contact surface. It's all that's needed for the application.
In any event, I doubt that the washer is going to "crush" enough with 29 lb-ft of torque to "absorb" any significant amount torque, like a spark plug washer definitely does. (That would be similar to pushing on a piece of foam, where you can push with a certain force, increasing it only a little, and the foam deforms to "absorb" the force. So tightening to a torque value without the washer wouldn't be any worse on the threads than with the washer.
Except hardly anyone uses a torque wrench on a drain bolt anyway. Most of them probably get routinely overtightened, as 29 ft lbs isn't all that much, and people tighten them to how tight they feel they should be tightened.
We're getting a long ways from the original question here! |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by Dale MDX
Clearly, the aluminum washer seals any gap better than no washer at all, and it is softer than the bolt or oil pan contact surface. It's all that's needed for the application.
We're getting a long ways from the original question here!
Most of my experience was with life tests, and involving repeated torquing. Other variables here too with regards to dissimilar metals.
If anything you would think the film of oil would make it easier to loosen, unless the it had been on there a very long time.
You are right, the washer is still key to a satisfactory seal over time. And does allow a more 'even' torque to be applied, as some slippage is allowed. |
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| TheWorm |
quote:
Originally posted by Dale MDX There is a tendency of bolts and nuts to take a "set" and lock in place, possibly partly due to effects of dis-similar metals, plus the fact that metals do "creep" or flow over time. (The surfaces will come closer to matching each other on threads, etc., where when they are first torqued, only the "high points" will be in contact)...So, similarly, if this is all that is going on, an oil drain bolt could get a little bit looser over time also, instead of tighter. But I think there are other things at work here like effectively being "glued" in place over time for various reasons, which is why it might take a higher initial torque to remove. (Maybe something in oil even acts a little like Loctite over time).
Certainly a plausible explanation. I use a torque wrench to tighten to spec, but there's a definitive "pop" when you break it loose. Definitely more force than 29lbft, though I haven't measured it in lbft -- just grunts :)
I'm not accounting, of course, for the serviceguy who just spins it on w/the impact wrench til it stops.
quote:
Clearly, the aluminum washer seals any gap better than no washer at all, and it is softer than the bolt or oil pan contact surface. It's all that's needed for the application.
In any event, I doubt that the washer is going to "crush" enough with 29 lb-ft of torque to "absorb" any significant amount torque, like a spark plug washer definitely does. (That would be similar to pushing on a piece of foam, where you can push with a certain force, increasing it only a little, and the foam deforms to "absorb" the force. So tightening to a torque value without the washer wouldn't be any worse on the threads than with the washer.
Agreed. I think we got into semantics about what "crush" is. When we're talking about the X's crush washers, I'm thinking that deform = crush. But it's just to "mold" to the underlying surface and prevent leakage (in the oil/VTM/tranny scenarios), and not to absorb the force and protect whatever's on the other side. Though as DaleB mentions it would more evenly distribute that force over the washer area and eliminate problems from any "high points" on either the bolt or mating surface (pan, VTM assy, etc).
Perhaps the engineers and accountants determined that it's less expensive to replace crush washers @ fluid changes than to spend the time & expense of perfectly machining the bolts and surfaces for a "lifetime" seal. Especially since that cost is borne by the customer.
Anyway, probably no-harm no-foul on SoCal's missing washer so long as the oil's still in the pan. Just demonstrates the dealer cutting corners @ his expense. And, like DaleMDX said, yet another reason to do it yourself if you're so inclined.
You could always call the dealer to complain. You might get the 50cent refund on the washer, or a free oil change next time around. But would you want it? |
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| DaleB |
I used to like the nylon washers they used on my older Toyota. Easy to spot if it's missing, and definitely had obvious signs of deformation, so there was no doubt it should be replaced. Also, provides a nice seal, with less chance of siezing.
Really, splitting hairs here, are we not? :2: |
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| TheWorm |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Really, splitting hairs here, are we not? :2:
That's a core competence around here :D |
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| mdxxxx |
quote:
Originally posted by TheWorm
That's a core competence around here :D
:jester: |
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| SanDogDewey |
quote:
Originally posted by socalJD
Hi All,
Looking for some feedback. Just did my DIY oil change over the weekend. When I drained my oil, I noticed that the crush washer was missing ! The last time the oil was changed was when the dealer did my 7,500 mile service. I was charged for the washer, so I never thought about actually checking for it. So 2 questions come to mind: 1) what actual/theoretical damage can happen due to not using the washer AND 2) what should I demand/accept from the dealer for this atrocity ??? TIA . . . the phone lines are now open . . .
As a courtesy call the service manager and tell him. Could have just been a mistake, but he can ensure it doesn't happen again. Demand? Atrocity? You probably get a free oil change, that's what I got when the dealer put the wrong oil in my Acura. I didn't even need a lawyer. |
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