| renov8r |
I know folks like controversy:
Teachers would rather have less behavior problems than more money
BTW, I was a highschool teacher for five years. I would 100% agree that lack of support for proper behavior is a big factor for why I decided to do something else. Further, I have friends that are still teachers. Surprisingly, they make about the same salary I do (I'm a Sr. info systems engineer for a large publicly traded firm...). Also surprising, I worked longer hours when I was a teacher, and I had to take college courses in the summer at my own expense vs getting free work related education on company time...
< late edit >Good thing I did not teach proof reading.. it should OUR schools not are... |
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| mdxxxx |
| b) teachers work hard BUT schools are messed up...:4: |
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| Blueflame |
School are fine, but I hate teachers that forces their view on my kids.
Bottom line, it's the parents who has to make sure their kids study and do their homework, not out side playing or watching tv. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by Blueflame
School are fine, but I hate teachers that forces their view on my kids.
Bottom line, it's the parents who has to make sure their kids study and do their homework, not out side playing or watching tv.
Most teachers are dedicated, who else would spend all day with somoeone else's kids for little pay. most that is...as far as the bad one's esp that push their views, there are only 3 ways to handle that.
One is to replace teachers with robots.
Two is to screen out the bad ones, union or no union, tenure or no tenure.
Three, and the most effective all around, teach our children to think for themselves, and to question everything. |
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| laborlitigator |
quote:
Originally posted by Blueflame
School are fine, but I hate teachers that forces their view on my kids.
Bottom line, it's the parents who has to make sure their kids study and do their homework, not out side playing or watching tv.
I agree. Stop blaming the schools or teachers. The buck stops with the parent(s). |
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| hammermdx |
quote:
Originally posted by laborlitigator
I agree. Stop blaming the schools or teachers. The buck stops with the parent(s).
I agree with LL, some parents expect the schools and teachers to replace their parenting skills! |
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| frostyra |
| The public schools could/would be much better if the teachers were allowed to TEACH. However, they must do additional paperwork and reports which have NOTHING to do with learning, they must be police officers and snitches, etc., etc. It's a wonder that anyone stays in that profession! I certainly don't blame conscientious parents for sending their kids to private schools; I would have done the same if I could afford to do so. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by frostyra
The public schools could/would be much better if the teachers were allowed to TEACH. However, they must do additional paperwork and reports which have NOTHING to do with learning, they must be police officers and snitches, etc., etc. It's a wonder that anyone stays in that profession! I certainly don't blame conscientious parents for sending their kids to private schools; I would have done the same if I could afford to do so.
I hear that. I grew up San Diego when those schools were rated in the top single digits for the US. One thing they had was centralized education administration until the state requirements had created such a burden, many functions got decentralized, more funding was collected to support it, while the performance gradually degraded.
This was played throughout the state. In those days states like CT, CA, MASS, and NY were on the top. Times have changed and not for the better. But we have a lot more politicians making a lot more money.
Now the schools are struggling to maintain with some excelling but not without tapping the taxpayer heavily. |
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| BlueStreak |
I recently finished two terms as a school board member. Talk about a job working for free....
There problems are (1) a number PARENTS today could care less. I had a parent stand up at a board meeting and said "I pay $3,000 a year in taxes; it's your job to educate my child". I replied "For the 8 hours a day we have you child, we can't undo the 16 hours of influence when he is with you. If you don't teach dicipline at home, I can't reinforce it here". Needless to say I made her day. I didn't create her home problems but I suppose to solve? Right....
(2) The hands of administration are so tied up in regulations they can't do a good job if they want to. They can't dicipline, they can't lean on kids, they can't get parents to take an interest, so they do the best they can, or many of them simply give-up and ride out their terms. Finally, problem (3) is tenure. We had problem teachers and we couldn't do anything with them. I'm NOT saying all are bad apples, but when you have a bad apple, it requires so much work to address the problem most administrators simply give up.
I feel for the good teachers. They have a tough job and get my respect.
My wife who's a school nurse gets subpoena'd at home to testify in a child abuse case because a child came into the nurses office with bruises all over his arms. What does this say about the type of problems at home? |
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| renov8r |
Yes, too many parents have a "piss poor attitude" when it comes to the role of the school vs the role of the parents -- even in private schools, there are parents who think school can undo the lack of basic "how to respect life & get ahead" that too many parents are clueless about.
Yes, there are an awful lot of regulations and THREATS of legal action that keep schools from doing the right thing.
But on the last point - tenure-, in my experience it is NOT that laws/unions/custom make it too difficult to dismiss tenured teachers that are poorly performing, it is that the MAJORITY of administrators do NOT set down an enforceable policy of what is acceptable. Let me be clear -- if an administrator (whether Superintendent, Principal, Dean, Department Chair or central office staff) CANNOT describe the ACTIONS & ATTITUDES that are the MINIMUM of acceptable conduct, they WILL NOT have teachers who a) are aware of what to do b) will give a damn. I have known about 40-50 administrators. I would say I have met less than five who CAN describe & follow through with what differentiates acceptable performance . That's right, I'm saying 95% of the administrators are not capable of differentiating & acting on acceptable & unacceptable teacher performance. The reasons vary. Some administrators CLEARLY know what WILL work to motivate kids, BUT they LACK the LEADERSHIP to get the teachers on board. Sometimes they take a person who is a great sports coach and make them a principal. While that CAN work, too often the things that work to motivate a young person to excellat sports are FAR DIFFERENT that what is needed to get an educated adult to become a great teacher. Sometimes (too often really) the administrators are just notching up their own salary and don't want to rock the boat. Well I have news, if you go to any great law firm, hospital or business, the real leading edge organizations don't just select great people to hire and then forget about it, they make damn sure that the people they hire back up their potential with results. If that means you have your senior attorneys & surgeons & vice presidents spend meaningful time with the new hire lawyers, interns, are rookie MBAs, that is what has to happen. If that means that does interns, lawyers & rookie MBAs that don't show results get shown the door, that has to happen too. In a few top notch schools it happens, but not enough. Finally, every state that has tenure has a procedure that the legislature voted on to remove unfit teachers. If that procedure is too cumbersome I am sure that there are legislators that would fix it. True, teacher unions do have some clout, but the way state elections are won or lost is by grassroots communication and the big dollars of AFT/ NEA just makes the unions look like bullies. |
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| msu79gt82 |
... so I am somewhat qualified to make some comments.
There is NO single problem; many have touched on some of the problems (and yes most school districts have problems).
1) A child can NOT receive a quality education w/o parental support. Schools with active parental support tend to excel, those that do not suffer. This is a near universal situation. When I say support I am referring to teachers/parents respecting each other and having mutual expectations & goals for the child.
2) There is often a disconnect between the local schools and upper levels of administration; this situation increases the higher up you go; local school - district - region - state, etc.
3) Most (including here in Texas) teachers are underpaid. The perception that teachers work 7:30 to 3:30 (classroom hours) is entirely false! Public school teachers are paid through taxes (most often property taxes) and NO one likes to pay taxes or have them increased. In a sense teachers have to ask the public for a pay raise through tax increases - yea right.
4) Speaking of pay, most school districts pay teachers according to a strict service based pay scale. Pay is based on years of service - period! There is no such thing as merit pay; poor teachers are paid the exact same thing as excellent teachers. The local administration has virtually ZERO "tools" with which to reward performing teachers or with which to send a message to under-performing teachers.
5) renov8r raises some excellent points regarding tenure - however it IS a problem with many school districts. Often it is the Region or State level that "describe the ACTIONS & ATTITUDES that are the MINIMUM of acceptable conduct" and the local school has little to say in the manner. My wife is a Dept Chair and she can "set" expectation for her group; yet she has zero say in determinig who should stay and who should go.
6) Part of renov8r's comments involve "motivating" the teachers using "real world" examples; "Well I have news, if you go to any great law firm, hospital or business, the real leading edge organizations don't just select great people to hire and then forget about it, they make damn sure that the people they hire back up their potential with results. If that means you have your senior attorneys & surgeons & vice presidents spend meaningful time with the new hire lawyers, interns, are rookie MBAs, that is what has to happen. If that means that does interns, lawyers & rookie MBAs that don't show results get shown the door, that has to happen too. In a few top notch schools it happens, but not enough." My only comment is see 4) above. Do not each one of these examples (law, medicine, business) use salary (incl perks, bonuses, etc) as a PRIME motivational tool? As I already said schools, can NOT do that. Pay is based on years of service period!! |
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