| The infamous "loose/rubbery steering" resurfaces, but mystery solved!!
- Click HERE for Original Thread
|
| vicpai |
This is a followup to my earlier problem discussed in the thread linked below (Steering Clunk): Bad, rubbery, non-linear/delayed steering response as well as "drifting" or "wandering"
http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/show...15&pagenumber=4
In the thread above, I had noted that after getting my car back the "steering problem" was resolved. However, after a day or two I noticed that it was not gone completely, and that on some surfaces (as well as after driving for a while) it started to exhibit the same symptoms, although to a lesser degree. Now I was pretty much convinced that it might have to do something with the tires (I remembered that experienced mechanic client of mine who had mentioned this earlier) ......Besides this the Service Manager at the dealership had mentioned that they had tried rotating the tires. So, the pieces of the puzzle seemed to be making some kind of sense now.
So I went to AMERICA'S TIRE COMPANY and told them my story. The guy said "Tires look fine ........possibly excessive 'groove wander' ......why don't you call Michelin and tell them. They'll probably give you some credit towards a better handling tire like the Michelin Pilot LTX" ........I was still not conviced entirely. So I called up Michelin and told them the story, claiming the tires were defective. The lady was real nice, and she scheduled an inspection for me, this time however, at a DIFFERENT America's Tire company location. When I arrived there, a couple of "tire techs" swore up and down that everything looked fine, but said that "the 'Ride-Match machine' (or something) was a state-of-the-art machine that could detect the SLIGHTEST problem of any kind with the tire". So, pretty dejected, I agreed to the test. The asst. Manager who had spoken to me earlier came out and personally did the "ride match" spin, as I watched from a distance. Suddenly, I saw him frantically waving, beckoning me to come over. He showed me, and I could see it SO CLEARLY. The first tire was deftective (serious flat spot) ......Then, the second tire was also defective (serious tread separation) WOW!! :eek: ........Third tire, again defective (serious flat spot) UNBELIEVEABLE!! :eek: .......Fourth tire, defective too (tread separation)!!!!! :eek:
Their Conclusion: the tires that had the tread separation generated "radial pull" or "drifting". The ones with the flat spots were causing the "leaning/sagging" as well as contributing to the erratic/pulling steering sensation (as the flat spots were towards the outer edge of the tire) ......they were at a loss of words because they did not expect ALL FOUR tires to be defective, and had just a few minutes earlier told me that "everything looked fine" :rolleyes: ......The Asst manager, however, insists that the tires with the flat spots were caused by a "panic stop" of some kind, even though I told him that I drive my car ever so gently. And I asked him, how can all four tires be defective then?? :27: knock knock?? :25: .....so he said that he would talk to Michelin and try to get me replacements on all four tires. Tomorrow, I have an appt. with them to have all four tires replaced, which should hopefully fix the problem for good!
Here's my analysis on this:
The repeated alignments did not do a thing for obvious reasons :rolleyes: .......Initially the problem was pronounced, when the tires with "tread separation" were on the front causing the tires to "FIGHT EACH OTHER". After the "session with the district rep" during which they tried rotating the tires, the ones with the "flat spots" came on the front and the the other tires went to the rear, thereby reducing the problem substantially. I was ecstatic, thinking that the dealership had done something to correct the problem, but when in effect they did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!! :rolleyes: The reason for the mushy/rubbery steering was because the "complicated" steering system with the torque-sensing-device was fighting the "separated treads" to change direction!! Also the America's tire Co asst. manager told me that the "offending tires" (the ones with tread separation) will cause a "radial-pull" no matter where they are at: The front or back. However, the "pull" is SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED when they are mounted at the rear.
Rosiedad,
I think you will find your problem if you get your tires inspected!! I'm almost sure!!! ..... I've seen a few threads (don't recall if it was on this forum or somewhere else) where MDXs had defective OEM Michelin Cross Terrains on them (dealer replaced them for free)
JPinto,
I think I can make an educated guess on what happened in your case: I recall, you mentioned that you had the same "loose steering" symptoms prior to your vibration problem. You also mentioned that the steering seemed to get "tighter" after you replaced the tires. Personally, I think the constant "pull" and "tug" generated by your defective tires might have ruined some component in the suspension or steering system (like a linkage) which is now "loose" or "bent" causing the vibration. I can only imagine how much "stress" or damage these tires might have put on my steering components over the last 11,000+ miles because of these r*tarded and incompetent Acura techs/Service people at these dealerships. I called South Bay Acura and have told them how p*ssed off I am at them for "brushing me off" like I was some stupid individual imagining things :mad: . I am going to pursue some sort of action!! YOU BET!! :3:
mdxer46,
have your tires checked!! - This is the very likely cause!... Like I said earlier, I could have sworn my problem was "steering-related", prior to this enlightening discovery. Faulty tires (like the ones with the tread separated on my vehicle) cause a lot of additional resistance to turning (squirm or squish). Now, because of the high-tech nature of the steering system, that torque-sensing device probably goes haywire, taking into account the additional "torque" generated by the tire. Therefore the "random" or "uneven" assist. This is just my theory, but if you use logic and reasoning it does make sense!
Will keep you guys posted on my outcome tomorrow!
Vic |
|
|
| Dale MDX |
| ABS should keep your tires from flat-spotting. If you were at some point sliding sideways, that would be a different story. But that doesn't seem likely. So the flat spots may remain a mystery. |
|
|
| m2pc |
Wow,
Vicpai, on my 96' TL, I had Michelin V rated Tires and one of the tires had your problem. I didn't care because I must have put 45K miles on them by the time that the shimmy and pull got unbearable. But your right, it was after I rotated them from the rear to the front that at even 15 MPH I could feel it. When I sold my car to my friend, I could not be sure if it was the tires or a mechanical issue, so I told him and we checked out the tires by jacking up the car and making sure that the tires were not scalloped or unevenly worn. They looked normal, but he replaced them anyways and they were the problem. Couldn't understand how the tread could have gotten separated. My friend and I never heard of anything like this, but we were just happy that it wasn't a mechanical issue.
Great news that they found the root cause! |
|
|
| renov8r |
All these problems are somewhat 'spooky'. in that the tires construction, driving habits, and variables like weather/temperature can make it almost impossible to determine what was the true cause.
It is EXCELLENT to hear that Michelin agreed to the high tech tire tester and it sounds like they are gonna make good/help you out on some new tires.In a way it is NOT suprising that the Acura shop doesn't have the same high tech tire tester. You would've thought that MAYBE they could've made a referal to Micheline for you...
Vic -- DEFINATELY call/write Acura Customer Care on this -- with the results from the test they might want to determine if there is/was something they can do to proactively help out other MDXers.
THANKS -- we need MORE owners like Vic who won't accept "that's normal" for something that clearly is NOT!
PS -- I wonder if the techs at your Acura store take 'test rides' like the tech at tha Cobra shop? Now THAT would explain the flat spots... |
|
|
| vicpai |
.......on this one in my excitement to get this issue finally resolved.The replacement tires have not fixed the problem! :( .......it seems like the power assist or some suspension component is the culprit. The vehicle steers well sometimes (light and accurate steering) and it feels rubbery and inaccurate/unsettled at other times. This phenomenon occurs randomly/intermittently (this is probably why I thought the tires were responsible)........and maybe some suspension component was responsible for ruining the tires possibly??
I have spoken to my Salesperson, Scott at Valencia Acura (from where I purchased my MDX) who in turn has apprised the Service Manager, Luis, of the situation. They've asked me to bring it in tomorrow for an in-depth diagnostic session. Will see what happens! Please wish me luck! :(
I'm also going to have them swap tires from another MDX, just in case the BRAND NEW tires I just installed are also defective :rolleyes: .....Well, I guess anything is possible in this unpredictable world we live in! :eek: |
|
|
| mdxer46 |
vicpai:
Thanks for your interest in resolving my steering issue. I was hopeful that you had resolved this issue for yourself and others like me.
I was recently looking for the typical symptoms that I get around long turns in one direction (non-linear issue) and I could not detect it. The intermittent nature of this problem is rather frustrating.
How do we get Acura's attention on this? I'd imagine that it would be in their "best interest" to want to resolve it, as it may be an inherent issue with one of their steering-related systems. |
|
|
| vicpai |
The mystery of this steering issue that I was having has finally been solved, thanks to the Service Manager, Mr. Luis Delgado at VALENCIA ACURA!!. I have finally just picked up my MDX and the steering is silky smooth ........drives like a dream now! :4: ....This time, I waited to post, till I was absolutely sure the problem was actually fixed, because I did not want to jump to conclusions again, like I did the last time.
All of the folks at VALENCIA ACURA have been extremely helpful and have gone out of the way to assist me! .....As soon as I spoke with Scott (my salesperson) and gave him the low down on my steering problem and the unsuccesful and half-hearted attempts to resolve it by South Bay Acura in Torrance, he showed immediate concern and had the Service Manager, Mr. Luis Delgado contact me within the hour! VERY IMPRESSIVE, INDEED!! :29: This tells me a lot about the commitment to the customer by Scott, as well as the dealership, even months AFTER the sale has been made!
Now, on to what exactly the problem was:
When I came in Wednesday morning, Mr. Luis Delgado promptly went with me on an extended test drive. I could feel that he was GENUINELY CONCERNED AND INTERESTED IN FINDING AND FIXING WHATEVER ISSUE THERE MIGHT EXIST (No "can't duplicate this, can't duplicate that" Bull Sh*t)! ......Besides this, when I had spoken briefly to him earlier, I got the gut feeling that he was very knowledgeable as well, and very passionate about his job, and automobiles in general. During the test drive he was very open-minded (unlike some :rolleyes: ) about all the possiblilites from the "Torque-sensing" device being faulty, to something that could be wrong with the power steering pump. He also noticed that the vehicle was randomly pulling to the right, ever so slightly. Then, we came back to the parking lot and he performed several slow-speed "full-turn" manuvers to the left and right (I had informed him that power assist was random and inconsistent, and was especially "HEAVY" at slow speeds after driving for a while). Immediately after a couple of turns, he noticed a subdued, but DISTINCT shuddering/ginding sound, only when making RIGHT TURNS. It did not happen on every turn, but once every 2 or 3 turns. Immediately thereafter, he said "We now know there's a problem and have duplicated it. I'll give you a loaner and we'll get you back on the road". At that point he thought it might have something to do with the rack, but assured me he would get together with his chief technician and get to the bottom of this.
The next day when I spoke with Mr. Luis Delgado, they had found the problem: What really amazes me is how well he was listening and taking notes on everything I'd mentioned to piece the puzzle together (I had also mentioned that I started noticing this after the tow-package was installed). When they consulted Acura tech line and presented the problem, they found out that several (a batch of) power steering coolers were left outside by a supplier who closed shop, resulting in these coolers corroding. These were then shipped nationwide and installed. So, tech line asked them to check the power steering fluid and LO AND BEHOLD it was black with rust particles floating around!! .....Tech line then recommended completely flushing the system, and then installing a new cooler and a new power-steering reservoir tank. However, they refused to put a new power steering pump or rack, which was also exposed to this fluid over the last 10,000+ miles. When I brought this up with Mr. Luis Delgado, he assured me that the reservoir has an extremely fine filtering mechanism (and therefore the replacement of the tank) and that, additionally, the fluid itself was silicone, which would "suspend" the particles in it, without having an adverse effect on the metal parts. I was also concerned that the pump and rack had no lubrication during these 10,000 miles. He said that since the fluid was at very high pressure and there was very little movement in the pump and rack (unlike in the engine) the effect of this would be a non-issue. However, I was fully assured by him, that in the unlikely even of any of these parts failing, since this is fully documented, Honda would take care of any future issues, as part of "goodwill", even after the warranty expires.
What really boggles my mind is the TOTAL INCOMPETENCE AND CALLOUS ATTITUDE of the service people at SOUTH BAY ACURA in TORRANCE. I'm also boggled by the INCOMPETENCE, AND LACK OF CONCERN, by Mr. KENNETH LIM, THE DISTRICT REP! (His answer was: "I don't see any safety issue here, so there's nothing we will do about this. Every vehicle has it's own individuality and no two vehicles will drive exactly the same :rolleyes: " ........The fact that I had specifically told them to look for a Steering-related issue, which they did not bother to do really p*sses me off :3: . At one point when the district rep was there, they told me that they'd performed a "STEERING SYSTEM PRESSURE TEST" and "INSPECTED THE FLUID" , which means they clearly LIED TO ME :3: . They were more interested in giving me excuses and getting me off their back :mad: I will be writing a very strong letter of complaint against Acura of South Bay, and Mr. Kenneth Lim, to Acura Headquarters :3: By the same token I will write praising Valencia Acura for their uncompromising efforts to provide excellent service to their customers! (Credit should be given where credit is due - I'm a firm believer in this)
All's well that ends well: The steering system in my "X" is now performing flawlessly, I am very happy, and VALENCIA ACURA has managed to restore my faith in the support provided for Acura products :29: ......If this issue was not handled and resolved, this would have been my LAST Acura product!
Rosiedad and mdxer46: I'm almost sure your steering problem may be the same as mine. Have your dealership do a complete power steering system check to see if the fluid has any corrosion in it. You may have some luck! |
|
|
| vicpai |
.......from my service repair order:
"STEERING SHUDDERS WHEN TURNING WHEEL TO RIGHT MAKING TURNS
(LUIS ABLE TO DUPLICATE)
CONTAMINATED FLUID, RUST IN POWER STEERING COOLER.
REPLACED POWER STEERING COOLER, POWER STEERING RESERVOIR,
THEN FLUSHED POWER STEERING SYSTEM. REFILLED SYSTEM TO PROPER LEVEL.
TEST DROVE VEHICLE AND ALL ASPECTS OF THE POWER STEERING SYSTEM ARE WORKING AS DESIGNED.
CUTOMER IS AWARE THAT CONTAMINATION MAY HAVE HAD A NEGATIVE RESULT ON OTHER STEERING COMPONENTS, BUT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL AT THIS TIME. PER AHM'S TECHLINE, WE HAVE PERFORMED THE RECOMMENDED REPAIR AND WITH THE CLIENT'S HELP WILL MONITOR THE PERFORMANCE ON THE POWER STEERING SYSTEM AS TIME GOES BY" |
|
|
| hammermdx |
vicpai,
Great news, it's great to hear that there are service departments out there that truly care! |
|
|
| m2pc |
| Great news, I think its a great idea that you place blame where its due, but also the praise where its due. That way, they know that your not just flaming and maybe they may take a serious look at what went wrong the first time. |
|
|
| DaleB |
quote:
,,,,,,,,,and that, additionally, the fluid itself was silicone, ....
Now that is interesting in itself. If it is indeed silicone, it can not be mixed with standard brake fluid. The owner's manual does state other fluid can be used in an emergency only, and needs to be flushed ASAP. Of course any fluid is superior to none!
This further supports my opinion of using only Honda fluids and never substituting anything over the counter except for motor oil.
Great vicpai...we need more conscientious service people like that. Maybe a nice bottle of wine would be an appropriate thank you.
This goes beyond a dozen donuts IMHO. |
|
|
| Rosiesdad |
quote:
Originally posted by vicpai
The mystery of this steering issue that I was having has finally been solved, thanks to the Service Manager, Mr. Luis Delgado at VALENCIA ACURA!!. I have finally just picked up my MDX and the steering is silky smooth ........drives like a dream now! :4: ....This time, I waited to post, till I was absolutely sure the problem was actually fixed, because I did not want to jump to conclusions again, like I did the last time.
My hat is off to you Sir ! You have done an outstanding job and documented it all perfectlly. All of us owe you a big debt of gratitude ! Sounds like you went to war with Acura and WON ! It does help when you can find a mechanic who is seriously interested in your problem. I wish I could take my vehicle to Valencia. But alas I will have to try with my dealer. Even with all the proof you have come up with, it will more then likely still be a battle. I was not around for the last few weeks and was not able to check online. Was I ever surprised at reading all this. Enjoy your new MDX and keep us informed. I will let you know what happens with my case. Thanks again |
|
|
| ACuraR |
I'm with you on using ONLY "Acura Genuine Fluids"!
I even use the Honda (Acura) motor oil...
A distinction needs to be made regarding power steering fluid and brake fluid. Never use power steering fluid in a brake system or visa-versa. Conventional brake fluid (dot 3) is glycol based and is not compatable in a power steering or hydraulic system. Power steering fluid introduced into a braking system will damage the hydraulic components (seals) and contaminate the system (big $$ repairs). |
|
|
| Rosiesdad |
| Well folks, as is usual with car dealer service departments. I wasn't as lucky to find someone who would either listen or care. I took Vic's advice and knowledge that he worked so hard for to my dealer. And got nothing but BULL and run around. B.T.W. the dealer is Acura of Turnersville in South Jersey. Nothing but schisters, bull artists and theives. So if you want to buy a car there. Don't say I didn't warn ya. It's a long story but the pont is that they didn't even want to listen and didn't even check the power steering fluid except to see it was full. Could have been mud in there for all they know. When the service manager come to you with the paper work and says. " it's all ready and washed " And you look out the window and see the front winshield is still covered with smashed bugs. You kind of get the feeling your getting a line of bull ! The hunt continues for an honest service department. |
|
|
| feliz |
| Geeez, sorry to hear about your experience. Acura really needs to get their customer service in order. |
|
|
|
|
