| hondacuraworld |
Since we've got a lot of new members, I thought I'd ask if there's anyone out there who's like me and has a real passion for home audio?
My main system:
McIntosh MC2105 amplifier
McIntosh C28 preamp
McIntosh MR67 FM tuner
Music Hall MMF-5 turntable
Altec A7 "Voice of the Theatre" speakers loaded with JBL 2440 Professional Series woofers, Altec 511B horns with 802A compression drivers, N500D crossover networks
Nakamichi cassette deck
Rega Planet CD player
Miles Davis never sounded so good (picked up Kind of Blue yesterday :) )
Thought this would be a good topic for a Friday :4: |
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| nytflyt |
Hi Tim,
I am also an audiophile but I have my system setup for both Stereo listening and Home Theater. I had separate systems for years but decided to combine them is one room when I built my current house.
It looks like you have a great sounding system I would love to be able to hear it some time.
Earl |
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| voltes |
Currently in a home theater project and still slowly upgrading my system.
I now have
Anthem AVM20 for HT
Musical Fidelity Ac3r amp for stereo
Anthem PVA7 amp for HT
Sony DVD 715 player for DVD watching and cd playing for now.
CD - still looking for a good deal for a used Arcam Diva 62 or Nad 541I
Rega P3 TT
B&W CDM 9NT fronts and CDM sub
I still have an old Mirage bipolars for my surrounds (will hope to upgrade soon to the B&Ws when the time comes :) )
This is a good topic any day of the week for me.
:2: |
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| Warzau |
Sorta audiophile
Have Panasonic 43 HD RPTV
Progressive Panasonic 5 Disc DVD/CD player
Single Technique CD player
go ol Sony VHS player
new Comcast set top cable box that decode HD signals (nice)
Mirage speakers. and a nifty Rat shack remote control. |
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| DaleB |
Have Sony Wega XBR..36"
Progressive Panasonic 5 Disc DVD/CD player also
Outlaw 950 pre/pro
B&K mutlichannel reference amp
M&K 750 THX speaker system
Dish Network. have not gone HD yet
Panamax 4300 AC protection
Kimber 4TC speaker cables
Outlaw PSC interconnects
Monster wall mount sub AC protection
Subscripton to Netflix
BOLTZ CD / DVD rack
1 pair of Godfather theater seats (www.4seating.com)
terrible customer service. but great seats!
RatShack Kameleon Remote...nice but battery eater |
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| frostyra |
Audio yes, video no. Not top-grade stuff, but matched well to each other. Am dickering with a guy to fix the balance weight on my turntable (broken part, no longer available). Have better-grade stuff for my on-the-side audio recording business, and use it sometimes for serious listening with the home system.
The only video I watch other than a leetle bit of Fox News Channel is NYPD Blue, time-shifted on the slowest speed of my VHS VCR. No DVD, and haven't rented a movie (other than for the grandkids) in at least three years. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by frostyra
Audio yes, video no. Not top-grade stuff, but matched well to each other. Am dickering with a guy to fix the balance weight on my turntable (broken part, no longer available). Have better-grade stuff for my on-the-side audio recording business, and use it sometimes for serious listening with the home system.
The only video I watch other than a leetle bit of Fox News Channel is NYPD Blue, time-shifted on the slowest speed of my VHS VCR. No DVD, and haven't rented a movie (other than for the grandkids) in at least three years.
90% of the time my HT system is tuned to
FM or CD 2 channel music, and mostly jazz. |
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| hondacuraworld |
quote:
Originally posted by frostyra
Audio yes, video no. Not top-grade stuff, but matched well to each other. Am dickering with a guy to fix the balance weight on my turntable (broken part, no longer available).
Ever think about heading over to www.audiokarma.org , and asking if somebody has one? I guarantee you'll find an answer :4: |
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| hondacuraworld |
Let's see some pics! :)
My C28 is on the way in from eBay, so I'll be posting mine on Monday or so. |
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| nytflyt |
Tim,
How did your C28 deal on ebay work out?
Earl |
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| hondacuraworld |
Worked great.....for about two weeks, and now the right side of my phono stage is shot :(
Have to send it out for repairs when I get time. |
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| nytflyt |
Sorry to hear that, I hope it won't cost much to fix the problem.
Earl |
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| hondacuraworld |
Well, I'm not too worried.....I've looked over the schematics, and it's not a complex thing. I was going to trace the problem myself, but there are no markings corresponding the schematic to the parts on the circuit board, which I found odd but probably not that uncommon in handwired equipment. Otherwise, I'd grab my meter and have at them (but I admit I'm not "that" good).
Incidentally we now have a McIntosh forum on my audio website, and we're fortunate enough to have Terry Dewick of www.mcintoshaudio.com as one of our newest members :) |
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| g_dog01 |
"Semi-Audiophile"
Sony 110W x 5ch Receiver (w/ some internal Sony ES components)
Pioneer 5-disc DVD/CD changer
Sony VHS
AR Tower Speakers w/ Titanium Tweeters, Dual Mids, & Side-Firing 10's w/ 175W Bob Carver Amps on each
Bose Acoustimass Surround System |
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| imraw |
Two channel audiophile: YES
Home Theater: SUCKS
CD-Sonic Frontiers SFCD-1
AMP-CODA 10.5
Preamp-CODA 02B
Speakers-Dunlavy SCIII (Cherry wood)
Speaker Cable- Z-cable Passion Bi-wire
Interconnects- Z-cable Balanced
Power cords- Z-cable Thunder and Tice Audio
Line conditioner- Richard Gray Powerstation
Tape Deck-Nakamichi RX-202
Michael Green Audiopoints
Sold my Transparent Audio Ultra speaker cable and interconnects after hearing the Z-cable. These cables ROCK. See them at zcable.com
Tim, I am still working on Mark for some z-cable samples for the group. |
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| crmsnidol |
quote:
Originally posted by g_dog01
"Semi-Audiophile"
Sony 110W x 5ch Receiver (w/ some internal Sony ES components)
Pioneer 5-disc DVD/CD changer
Sony VHS
AR Tower Speakers w/ Titanium Tweeters, Dual Mids, & Side-Firing 10's w/ 175W Bob Carver Amps on each
Bose Acoustimass Surround System
Would that Sony receiver be the DB930 or DB940?:) |
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| hondacuraworld |
quote:
Originally posted by imraw
Two channel audiophile: YES
Home Theater: SUCKS
CD-Sonic Frontiers SFCD-1
AMP-CODA 10.5
Preamp-CODA 02B
Speakers-Dunlavy SCIII (Cherry wood)
Speaker Cable- Z-cable Passion Bi-wire
Interconnects- Z-cable Balanced
Power cords- Z-cable Thunder and Tice Audio
Line conditioner- Richard Gray Powerstation
Tape Deck-Nakamichi RX-202
Michael Green Audiopoints
Sold my Transparent Audio Ultra speaker cable and interconnects after hearing the Z-cable. These cables ROCK. See them at zcable.com
Tim, I am still working on Mark for some z-cable samples for the group.
We're going to have some cable samples make the rounds for a free test-drive very soon if you're interested in taking part. As well, we've got other fun things to try for the price of shipping to the next person, such as Buggtussel Vinyl-Zyme record cleaner, Shun Mook isolation discs, Jean-Marie Reynaud interconnects, and more. Just sign up and post in the threads in Equipment Reviews and Opinions when you see them come up, most likely within the next 2 weeks :) |
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| one4gatr |
| Sign up where Tim? |
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| hondacuraworld |
First thing to do is to register here:
www.audiokarma.org
My name on the site is Kamakiri, I'm the admin.
Join in the discussions if you like! The demos will be showing up in the Equipment Reviews and Opinions forum. |
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| mikel51 |
I haven't looked in this forum for quite a while. My system is:
Anthem CD-1 CD player (tube)
EAR tube preamp
Sonographe (Conrad Johnson) solid state power amp
Magnepan MG 3.3R speakers
Wheatstone HA-2 tube headphone amplifier
Sennheiser HD600 headphones
I do have my TV plugged in for listening to DVD movies, but haven't gone multi-channel.
I love the sound of the Magnepan speakers, and they sound best with solid state amplification. Since I am not a hard core audiophile, I am pretty happy with the sound of the system, but upgrades would include a Mark Levinson power amp (I have listened to my speakers powered by one and it was an easily discernable audio upgrade). I also think that a better CD player would help.
I am seriously considering building a media PC to hold all of my music. After using an IPOD, I love having all of my music accessable without searching for the CDs. I also like putting together playlists that have my favorite tunes. PCs are generally not considered high quality audio sources, but I am planning to store all of the music as uncompressed files so the quality will be way better than MP3s. I would then feed the digital output from the computer into an audiophile quality DAC, perhaps one of the Bel Canto DAC2s with upsampling. |
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| CaptiveMind |
I was wondering when someone was going to mention Conrad Johnson or Krell gear. Fantastic stuff!!! By the waym I'm new to the site.
I've been an audiophile for some time now. I have a Nakamichi Dragon cassette deck, a pair of Audio Research mono amps, a pair of Apogee speakers. Still astounded at the technology that the Dragon design represents. Love the tube amps. Always was impressed with the Wilson Audio WAMM speaker system but couldn't even fathom owning a setup that expensive.
Just a little history since I didn't put much if anything in my bio... I'm a fanatic when it comes to audio.... a Full Sail graduate (Neve and SSL 72 channel consoles with flying faders, New England Digital Synclaviers, Grass Valley switchers,... the memories), worked in Chicago (Streeterville Studios) as an recording engineer for a couple of years doing recording, editing and mixdown, A/B Post pro, various jingle production work, music videos,... all sorts of cool stuff... IMHO. :4: So suffice it to say... all of this high-end audio/video talk together with conversations about my favorite SUV? Awesome!!! Don't anyone pinch me. lol |
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| hondacuraworld |
I've always wanted a Dragon, and now that my BX-100 Nakamichi deck is going to need new belts, it might be time to upgrade :)
Make sure that you stop by my audio forums at www.audiokarma.org !
My system, updated:
McIntosh MC2105 amp
McIntosh C28 preamp
McIntosh MCD7000 CD player
McIntosh MR67 FM Tuner
Music Hall MMF-5 turntable
McIntosh MQ101 equalizer
McIntosh ML-1C speakers
Kenwood KC-6060A Audio Lab Scope
Nakamichi BX-100 Cassette Deck
Second system:
Pioneer SX-1010 Receiver
rTr HPR-12 Magnum speakers
Living room system:
Sansui G-901 receiver
Paradigm Titan speakers
System here at work :) :
McIntosh MAC1900 receiver
Wharfedale W35 speakers
Sherwood CD-1000C CD Player
Next purchase is going to be a tube amp when I have the extra cash, most likely vintage Fisher, as I sure do miss my 500C. |
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| hondacuraworld |
| By the way, if anyone wants to borrow my lab scope, let me know. It effectively measures wow and flutter, distortion, FM and AM multipath, plus a few other things :) |
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| mdefrances |
Tim and all forum audiophiles . . . Now that I've heard DVD-A in my new TL, I will probably be looking to upgrade my modest home system to 6 channel DVD-A/DTS sound. I've heard that there is a competition between 5.1 and DVD-A to become the next generation audio system (kind of like Beta and VHS tapes a few years ago). That DVD-A surround sound in the car is awesome. That is a great listening environment. Hope the next gen MDX gets that system.
Not too many DVD-A discs out right now, but they might catch up. Any advice?
Thanks |
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| ghost |
Hey, why not?
Here's my CD player, more to follow. The Silver and Black is a nice compliment to my MDX... |
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| hondacuraworld |
Surround sound for the most part is the wrong thing to go with for musical reproduction. Think about it, when you're listening to a live performance, the performers are in FRONT of you, not behind you.
See, though, I'm an opinionated audiophile :) |
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| ghost |
quote:
Originally posted by hondacuraworld
Surround sound for the most part is the wrong thing to go with for musical reproduction. Think about it, when you're listening to a live performance, the performers are in FRONT of you, not behind you.
See, though, I'm an opinionated audiophile :)
I disagree - a key part of the live performance is the acoustics of the hall where the performance takes place. I remember the Grateful Dead wouldn't quit playing at the University of Michigan's auditorium because they were so blown away by the acoustics there.
(Ok, maybe they were just blown away, but no matter, emulating auditorium acoustics is important! :) ) |
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| hondacuraworld |
See here comes the opinionated part ;)
When you're talking about music, in that case you'd just be compensating for incorrect room acoustics and/or speakers with inadequate dynamic presence.
The Greatful Dead "Wall of Sound" was created with Altec lansing "Voice of the Theatre" components such as the A5 with top loaded horns. I would argue that to get a true feeling for the music when listening to live performances, you need to use equipment similar to what was used on stage to get the true effect. |
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| hondacuraworld |
| My system as it was 6 months ago, sold my A7's to go with McIntosh speakers. |
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| ghost |
| Well, OK, I'll just have to get me a set of those, and maybe a Strat to plug into it! :D:D |
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| DaleB |
Properly applied, multi-channel recordings can go a long way in reproducing the necessary acoustics. Unfortunately, the number of recordings that do this very well are somewhat limited. But those that do add tremendously to the enjoyment of the performance.
Listening to a 'live' recording like the Eagles, "When Hell Freezes Over" would sound like you are still standing in the lobby in 2 channel reproduction.
What multi-channel sound has done is open up a whole new world of music that was recorded live, or at a venue that 2 channel sound could never hope to recreate.
It does not replace (a la studio conditions) finely produced CD's or LPs, but simply broadens the spectrum of music that is available. |
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| CaptiveMind |
| I'm going to have to agree with Tim on the accuracy in recreate-ability of the live experience. (Wondering if recreate-ability should be coined. lol) It takes an engineer (or engineers) with golden ears to be able to capture a good portion of the accoustics in as uncolored an environment as possible and even then we're only ever going to be capturing a portion of that acoustic experience. Theoretically we'll never be able to capture it all. On top of that the manufacturer of these Dolby Pro Logic or THX or whatever...products must make assumptions on how the end user will be setting up their home environment in order to faithfully create (via synthesis) the original experience. Never will you be able to capture the entire original experience and then duplicate it in yet another acoustically different environment. We can come close....maybe even approach that theoretical limit, but never will it be perfect. If you're OK with those compromises then so be it. Personal call of course. |
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| hondacuraworld |
Going forward on this topic, here are a few truisms that I've discovered on my journey into the world of audio. You may or may not agree ;)
1. Speakers are all about moving air, therefore small speakers don't cut the mustard when it comes to producing across the whole musical spectrum "from DC to daylight". Multiple drivers, yes, but not those little tiny speaker boullion cubes that are most often used in home listening. The amount you spend on your system is determined by what you listen to, and more importantly, how you listen.
2. There are very very very few systems that can do everything well. Tubes and horns absolutely sing when it comes to vocals, instrumentals, and strings, but fall flat on their face when introduced to, say, hard rock. Solid state gear can sound amazing playing hard rock, but it doesn't have the bone-chilling realism of a tube amp. Natural instruments take well to tubes, and music created on electronic medium naturally sounds best on SS gear. The only thing I've found that does both astoundingly well is McIntosh, and even then the tradeoff is the dynamic highs that tubes can muster.
3. Just because it has a high falootin brand name does not mean it sounds good. I remember an occasion when a friend had a Denon unit that he just purchased, which was mopped up pretty thoroughly by a 6BQ5 stereo amp pulled out of a discarded 1960s Magnavox console radio/record player. With audio, you never know what will sound good until you try it. More often than not you end up being surprised.
4. Cables make a difference.
5. Plastic boxes with little digital displays are no fun to look at no matter what they sound like. |
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| hondacuraworld |
| This is my beauty....total cost of amp and case around $800 :D |
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| ghost |
quote:
Originally posted by hondacuraworld
5. Plastic boxes with little digital displays are no fun to look at no matter what they sound like.
So true - there's nothing like the sound of those VU meters being pegged up against the side of the window - the effect just isn't the same in digital. I have an old Akai reel-to-reel with VU meters, it was a fun machine. |
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| tax_atty |
| Used to be more of an audiophile. When I got married 4 1/2 years ago & moved to our first apartment I couldn't fit in my stereo system in the apartment, so I ended up getting a Bose Lifestyle system. When I built my house I had my whole first floor wired with the Bose system. It's a good system but doesn't match up to my old system (Harman Kardon amp, tuner, and equalizer, Sony ES CD player, JBL speakers & M&K speakers). The old system is sitting in my Dad's house. When I build out the basement, I will add some custom cabinets and install it there. |
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| Allen Cichanski |
Tim,
Wow! Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater speakers! What wonderful and efficient speakers. A good friend of mine had a pair with McIntosh amps too and I still think they were one of the best systems I ever heard. It seems to me that too many audio systems (home and car) are evaluated simply on how much bass they can put out and if they will make your ears bleed with high decibel sound. I guess many "audiophiles" of today never knew that originally it was called "high fidelity". I have a pair of custom made (my work) transmission line speakers with KEF drivers and wool filled transmission lines. They're based on a design from I.M Fried and the British mag Gramophone. They're nearly twenty years old and my wife would like to get rid of them to free up some space but damn do they ever sound good! I just don't have the heart to move them out. |
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| hondacuraworld |
| And the best part of the VOTs is that I built them from genuine Altec components for under $500. Good audio doesn't have to cost a bundle, that's the whole premise behind www.audiokarma.org |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by CaptiveMind
I'm going to have to agree with Tim on the accuracy in recreate-ability of the live experience. (Wondering if recreate-ability should be coined. lol) It takes an engineer (or engineers) with golden ears to be able to capture a good portion of the accoustics in as uncolored an environment as possible and even then we're only ever going to be capturing a portion of that acoustic experience. Theoretically we'll never be able to capture it all. On top of that the manufacturer of these Dolby Pro Logic or THX or whatever...products must make assumptions on how the end user will be setting up their home environment in order to faithfully create (via synthesis) the original experience. Never will you be able to capture the entire original experience and then duplicate it in yet another acoustically different environment. We can come close....maybe even approach that theoretical limit, but never will it be perfect. If you're OK with those compromises then so be it. Personal call of course.
What a much greater compromise trying to 'recreate' the original environment with only 2 channels!
THX is only a standard and is intended to work within certain parameters that easily attainable in most homes. Things have progressed far beyond Dolby Pro Logic in the area of processing, and all the reproduction equipment has advanced too.
Yes, the average home is not the best in every case, but excellent results can be obtained with carefull planning.
The reference is the same...your brain gathers experience listening to live music. Do not underestimate what the recording and processing engineers have been able to do. THAT is making an assumption. Many mutichannel recordings are receiving critical acclaim all the time.
Some of the advantages are better instrument location, this also has to do with the nuances in the original acoustics you can not appreciate with 2 channel sound.
I have an Beach Boys DVD audio recording that includes rehearsal sessions in the studio on a couple of cuts. The results are sensational, and there is no way standard stereo processing could ever replicate the realism as well.
That's only one example.
Again, there is a big place for 2 channel sound. Especially for many recordings that have never been released again. It is possible to have the best of both worlds. Multi-channel sound does not detract from 2 channel sound one iota. It just offers an additonal avenue of reproduction. |
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| CaptiveMind |
Dale,
I think you're missing the point. I'm not suggesting 2 channel audio is any better or worse than multichannel. In each case the engineer do the recording and/or mixdown makes a great deal of assumptions based on his/her own experiences and tastes. Same goes for those at THX or Dolby. It's a matter of taste and as you've stated they provide an "additional avenue of reproduction".
The faithfulness of that recording to the original event is an entirely different story. And it takes a top notch engineer to decide what should be emphasized and what should be subdued in the mixdown. I did jingles and some band recordings in Chicago and I'll be the first to tell you even the best engineered and mastered CDs are open to interpretation. Very subjective. The engineers at THX, Sony's SRS and Dolby (and I'm sure there are others right around the corner) will all do their best (to try) to (re)create an optimal acoustic space within an environment/room tuned to a certain set of their average listener's tastes (based on feedback from the golden eared audiophile world).
From my humble experience I recall all too many recording sessions (some where I was the engineer; others where I was assisting or just listening) where the producer felt it necessary to steer the "flavor" of the recording his way. Not uncommon in the recording industry. And it doesn't stop there. Technically, the recording should be "dry" meaning No (or next to No) processing; straight to tape, banking on your own expertise as an engineer to have placed the mikes appropriately, but for arguments sake let's assume you've got the perfect recording, completely and perfectly faithful to the original experience. First, the tracks are going to be processed and mixed, and remixed and "refined" based on someone's perceived golden-eared audiophile ability. At some point the recording is mixed down to a straight stereo cut, holographic stereo or quad... or possibly formatted for THX (tweaked by someone with the skills to do so).
After a lot of "expert" hands have touched the audio mix (and there are many), the CD finally gets to your hands and hopefully you're impressed with the faithfulness of the recording. You may really love it, while some golden-ear somewhere says it hogwash. Or vice-versa. Hopefully, if the recording engineer has miked the guitars, drums, vocals, flutes, tubas, horns, synthizers, etc... and the room acoustics appropriately (faithfully capturing each instrument's timber, harmonics, etc...)... and the mixdown is performed with the utmost taste and eye towards achieving the perfect faithful-to-the-source tonal quality....AND the final mix gets mastered on only the best quality virgin materials available... AND the final store-bought CD is played back on a system that can faithfullly and exactly reproduce all the wonderful timbres and harmonics of all of the instruments, positioned in the 3D soundfield with pointsource accuracy...with whatever processing algorithm or speaker configuration is necessary to achieve the realism and again, faithfulness to the original work... then the industry has succeeded in it's attempts to create the near-perfect production.
Just my .02 worth. ;) Sorry for the novel.
By the way, didn't the phrase "Hi-Fi" and "High Fidelity" actually get coined during the monaural/pre-stereo age? |
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| CaptiveMind |
Also, some of the best golden-eared audiophiles will say that any processing of the original signal is a step towards degrading the faithfulness to that signal. I'm happily not one of those golden-ears. ;) But I can certainly see their side of the argument. The question isn't whether the original signal has been processed/enhanced/altered,..... but just how much processing is acceptable before the reproduced signal is deemed unfaithful to the original.
THX's manuals, even their site (www.thx.com), talk about enhancing the experience, enveloping the listener in the environment, the acoustic space. And don't get me wrong. I love a great THX -encoded movie played back on an capable THX system. Very much so. But THX is not about "faithfulness" to the original signal. IMHO, certain media and recordings lend themselves well to multichannel THX reproduction... and certain media and recordings do not....just as some enjoy hearing a fine jazz recording through a pair of high-end, quality speakers and a system to match...and some would prefer a more punchy, "enhanced" experience, regardless of whether the signal is all that faithfully reproduced or not. All subjective to the listener's tastes. |
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| DaleB |
THX is only one means of defining the correct relationship of all components, the correct delays for speakers based on their distance from the listener, proper bass management, the correct rolloff of surround speakers, etc. etc.
It has nothing to do with the faithfulness of an original recording and/or how the mix was derived. Whether it is 2 channel or 7.1, the reproduction process has no control over the original mix of the program source, granted! We agree!
Of course, over-processing can be detrimental to the faithfulness of the program, whether it is applied during the original recording, or at the reproduction phase. We agree again!
"By the way, didn't the phrase "Hi-Fi" and "High Fidelity" actually get coined during the monaural/pre-stereo age?"
Yes, it certainly did! And the early attempts of stereo to 'dazzle' put true High Fidelity in the back seat for a while too, until the process was perfected. I remember those days! We agree, thrice!!?
Also the first feeble attempts at multi-channel sound with quadraphonics which most of us avoided because we did have a greater interest in more accurate 2 channel sound.
As you may or may not know, if you ever visit home theater websites, one of the priorities of most of the knowledgeable people on these forums is we want a home theater system that will also provide excellent 2 channel sound. Fortunately, the better equipment manufacturers are certainly aware of that. |
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| CaptiveMind |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
........... Some of the advantages are better instrument location, this also has to do with the nuances in the original acoustics you can not appreciate with 2 channel sound.
........... and there is no way standard stereo processing could ever replicate the realism as well.
........... there is a big place for 2 channel sound. Especially for many recordings that have never been released again.
Dale,
Just rereading. It almost sounds like stereo is history. Albeit multichannel has made some great strides in achieving the experience of the environment. A broad generalization though that multichannel/THX can somehow repoduce an instrument's nuances/timbre/harmonics better than 2-channel stereo setup with say a good pair of KEFs or B&W 801 or even ribbon drivers as on my Apogee Acoustics is untrue. The rule of thumb (so say the serious Audiophile rags of the world) is that when piecing together a great sound system, half of the overall budget should be spent on the speakers alone since they are the window to fidelity. With that said, I'm going to guess that the quality of workmanship that goes into a stand-alone pair of high-end speakers (KEF, B&W, McIntosh, Apogee, Thiel) exceeds that of what you will be able to buy spread out over 5+ speakers. I agree with Tim that more money doesn't always mean higher quality...speakers, amps, or otherwise. But you'd be hard pressed to convince those with these top tier speakers that anything less would suffice. Hand-picking a set of high-quality, tonal-balanced-matched 5+ speakers for THX would no doubt return an equally satisfying experience I'm guessing.
Ultimately though, if the same amount of care given to TEF analysis of the room ensuring good time/phase-alignment and convergence, there's no validity in that assumption at all. There's a place for both system designs in the same household. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses and the quality of the speakers and care in placement and alignment makes all the difference in the world when it comes to audio quality. |
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| CaptiveMind |
It's nice to agree on occasion. lol I can see you're not a babe in the woods when it comes to audio. Nice to meet someone of your taste of quality and intelligence, sir.
Agreed thrice, eh? ;) |
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| DaleB |
It is nice to share what we have seen over the years as well as what is happening on the horizon.
But consider this: If you can timber match 2 speakers, 3 more should not be a problem. That is an over-simplification but in actuality, the demand for excellent 2 channel sound has driven speaker manufacturer's to reach for the moon, and still keep costs reasonable.
The surrounds in a 5.1 system do not have the same demands placed on them as do the front 3. Although the tonal quality will be similar. Better systems use 3 timber match front speakers, typically the same exact configuration, although the alignment for the center channel may be horizontal instead of vertical, etc.
KEF, B&W, McIntosh, Vandersteen, among many others, are producing HT systems that rival their own standards for 2 channel sound. But then again, why not? Really, as sophisticated as modern speakers are thanks to better materials, computerized design technology, and better measurement instrumentation, the 'improvement' over the last decade pales compared with technological advances in displays and automated control systems.
But I digress. Fortunately, the human is very adaptable and can listen to his favorite music even under less than ideal conditions and still enjoy it, even if it is not in his favorite easy chair and through his superior home system. And most of us prefer our home systems than spending the money on theater tickets, parking, and all the other hassles involved in attending a live performance. Unless of course the venue is unmatched for acoustics, and the artist is making a rare appearance. Enjoy! These discussions are always a pleasure. |
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| hondacuraworld |
Just one short note.....if anyone is interested, my audio website is hosting a meet in Southfield, Michigan in February.....I'll be driving up for the meet, and would love to meet up with anyone interested in attending :)
Details here:
http://www.audiokarma.org/ak2004/ |
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| Pauls MDX |
| I just received the Bose Lifestyle 12 series II system for a holiday present. The sound is amazing for such a small system and can't even tell where the sound is comming from. It could use a little deeper bass in my opinion, but the television sound is amazing. It does have the Dolby Pro Logic 5.1 decoding, but not the newer Pro Logic II decoding. I'm not sure what the difference is in the newer decoding? |
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| Maik |
Paul,
We have had the Bose Lifestyle system for a couple of years and absolutely love it. Best part is the lack of fiddling that needs to be done. Sound is amazing. I am surprized that you are not satisfied with the base, ours is set at only slightly passed the midpoint.
Only complaint I have is the remote. While radio requency is nice in theory, to be able to control system from another room, it also renders it unable to program to another master remote. This requires us to use 2 remotes at all times. |
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| tax_atty |
The Lifestyle systems are nice. I have the Lifestyle 25 in my den and extra jewel cubes in the living room and dining room. The average person will not miss the ProLogic II or THX. What you do get is really good surround sound from any TV broadcast even if it was not done in stereo in the first place.
There are a few high end all in one remotes that include radio signals. I looked into it a while back and just didn't think it was worth the cost. Funny thing about the radio frequency remote - after we moved in I found my stereo was turning itself on. It turns out my next door neighbor also has a Bose system and his remote was operating my unit too. He had the same problem. We agreed that I would change the frequency of my remote.
I had all my wiring hidden in the walls when I built my house. My neighbor went one step further and had them drop the subwoofer under the floor with a ventilation cover allowing the base to come up. Looks cleaner than mine because I don't have any furniture yet in my living room (furniture from my apartment went into the den) and the Lifestyle subwoofer sticks out like a sore thumb sitting in the corner.
This is getting to be a long post but one more thing. If you ever need technical assistance (such as with a layout) call technical support - they are really helpful. The stores are OK for basic info but they really don't know the technical stuff. |
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| ndahbar |
Ok if you don't mind I wanna ask you about this. Basically, I wanna change my living room speakers. Currently I have these 2 decent ones, they have served me well I must say. I've had them since '97, and didn't pay too much for them, and they have impressed many guests over the years (not sure why, they really aren't all that, lol). They are the large tower kind, not a super-famous brand name, but they don't have such a great fidelity across the frequency range.
Anyway, I wanna get a 5.1 system. A *better* than good system. I want something *NICE*, but I don't want high-end cuz I don't wanna spend that kind of money. Max like $1500, actually, not even that much. =p
First, some things about the rest of the "environment" first.
The living room is like 18x11, but essentially the "TV area" is in half of it, so like 9x11. The other half is the dining room, and it's all open space, no doors/corridors.
I decided after much reading about audio protocols/technology this week that I MUST get a new receiver as well. I need Dolby Pro Logic II, as well as Dolby Digital and/or DTS. This I now understand why.
Lastly, my intended uses are primarly to watch TV and DVD movies, and for my console gaming, most of which these days supports 5.1 audio, so that's nice.
Ok so I am intruiged by, for example, this system: http://www.aperionaudio.com/products/pr_htas_51.html
reviewed here: http://www.cheaphometheater.com/Ape...51%20system.htm
Like I said I want something VERY nice, but not anywhere near high-end. Yeah, I know that $1000-$1500 is NOT high-end, but u know what I mean. So what do you think for my room size and receiver specs? If it were to be the Aperion Intimus system, I'm considering their 10-inch sub (totally no need for the 12 inch size, and the 8-inch seems to be of an inferior design).
Can u recommend "competitors" to this Aperion system above here, from between like $800 to $1300-ish, if you know of any. The cool thing is with the Aperions is that they come with free 5.1 speaker Monster wire kit (worth $140), free shipping, and no tax. So as you know the wires alone can cost quite a bit, so factor that in to the price. Also it's 30-day money back, including they pay for the shipping back to them. Also the warranty is 5 years. I was reading that their support people are awesome.
Again, I want something REALLY nice, so yeah I know that I will need to spend at least a grand it seems, but that's acceptable to me. Even something closer to 1300 than 1000. I guess. But not too much more! Not worth it to me as you can tell from my intended uses. By all means if you know something that rocks which is under $1000, tell me! ;)
Thanks people! |
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| imraw |
| I have to give two thumbs up to Tim on this one. I used to sell Paradigm speakers and the best thing we ever did was take a Bose AM5 speaker system in on trade at our shop. We set the Bose system up in a cubical with a set of Paradigm Micros ($149 pair) using a simple receiver, cd player, and identical runs of Audioquest speaker cables. The Paradigm Micros blew away the Bose in all aspects to include base and they did not even have a subwoofer. I hate to say it but Bose is CRAP. Ok, I dont hate to say it, it is true. We had the Micros and other Paradigm speakers going out the door. You can not really go wrong with any of the Paradigm speakers and their Reference speakers are even more amazing. I professionally (as an avid audiophile) feel that Paradigm offers the best bang for the buck. If you would like more information on them please feel free to email me. |
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| nytflyt |
If it has no highs and it has no lows it must be Bose.
Earl |
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| MDteX |
quote:
Originally posted by nytflyt
If it has no highs and it has no lows it must be Bose.
Earl
Amen!!! They are sold on looks not sound.:28: |
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| imraw |
| Sold on looks???? WTH is that? Why would someone purchase a box of crap? When you get it home it is still a box of crap!!! Just riding you MDtex. Anyone willing to waste their money on Bose gets what they deserve. It is a product where price of product is comprised of 5% product 95% marketing. It is tough to compete with that. But then again, people also purchase Monster Cable. God help the poor souls ears that listen to an audio system comprised of Monster Cable and Bose speakers. |
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| Pauls MDX |
Come on guys for the money Bose is a good product. You are comparing high end speakers that of course are going to sound better. You guys are really into high end sound and very precise listeners. Bose for the average person sounds great, I will agree there pricing does get high but if you need very small speakers for a room they are great. I feel your comparing much higher levels products to the Bose line. Like comparing a Luxury vehicle to an average mid-sized sedan.
For my family room where space was limited the Lifestyle system was excellent especially for $1,400. I plan on a more serious system for my theatre room like a Denon Receiver AVR-2802, Klipsch Reference RF-5's for front, RS-7 for surround and RC-7 for center. I wouldn't even attempt to compare the two.
:4: |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by Pauls MDX
Come on guys for the money Bose is a good product. You are comparing high end speakers that of course are going to sound better. You guys are really into high end sound and very precise listeners. Bose for the average person sounds great, I will agree there pricing does get high but if you need very small speakers for a room they are great. I feel your comparing much higher levels products to the Bose line. Like comparing a Luxury vehicle to an average mid-sized sedan.
For my family room where space was limited the Lifestyle system was excellent especially for $1,400. I plan on a more serious system for my theatre room like a Denon Receiver AVR-2802, Klipsch Reference RF-5's for front, RS-7 for surround and RC-7 for center. I wouldn't even attempt to compare the two.
:4:
I think it is fair to say Bose comments are directed to those who think it does not get any better, not those who can tell a difference which obviously you can.
Of course, whether you are just laying in bed listening to the clock radio while you open your eyes, or a radio hanging in the shower, or a small mini system in your office, or MP3s while you are jogging, etc....music is music.
When you are ready for critical listening you know it takes the right equipment. |
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| hondacuraworld |
quote:
Originally posted by Pauls MDX
Come on guys for the money Bose is a good product. You are comparing high end speakers that of course are going to sound better. You guys are really into high end sound and very precise listeners. Bose for the average person sounds great, I will agree there pricing does get high but if you need very small speakers for a room they are great.
Be that as it may, Paradigm speakers are no more money than Bose.....
I have said this before, and I will say it again: the audio hobby is not about price!!! It does not have to cost a mint to sound good!
As a matter of fact, I can build a two channel system for less than $400 that will easily outperform anything that can be had for under $2,000 that comes new in the box. In fact I would gladly ship a receiver and a set of speakers to a member here that doubts it ;) (as long as you ship them back :) ).
I run Paradigm Titans in the living room with a Sansui G-901 receiver.....I've had sound engineers over the house who have just been astounded as to how such incredible range can come from such a small package.
We talk about home audio over on Acuraworld once in a while, but nobody ever listens to me there.....they're stuck in cheapo HT ;) |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by imraw
Home Theater: SUCKS
Not for those of us who enjoy both! |
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| imraw |
| Keep up the good fight Tim. It was all I could do to convince people that Bose sucked and for less money I can get them much better sound. Hell, a simple two channel Onkyo or Denon receiver and a pair of Paradigm Micros will smoke anything that Bose has to offer. People need to open their ears and their minds and they might be amazed. Have your fellow colleagues at work listen to a simple system instead of their crap. Even better, have them come to KC and listen to my system. Then let them drool. |
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| DaleB |
Everyone can make their own decisons. This 'look at my stuff' is rather childish IMHO. Selecting what works for you is what is important. Everyone can make informed decisons in that regard.
There are tons of resources available for research to assist folks in getting educated on any subject. This forum included. |
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| imraw |
| OH, but Dale, reading about good sound has nothing to do with hearing good sound. The problem is that sometimes what people read they actually believe they hear. I was just offering up suggestions to those that think Bose is actually a good sounding product. |
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| BlueStreak |
| As I'm finishing my basement and have it all wired for sound, in a couple months I'm going to be receiver and TV shopping and I'll need to solicit advice on what to get. I have some Polk Audio wall and ceiling speakers that are awesome and once drywall is installed they will get mounted. There is so much to chose from these days.... |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by imraw
OH, but Dale, reading about good sound has nothing to do with hearing good sound. The problem is that sometimes what people read they actually believe they hear. I was just offering up suggestions to those that think Bose is actually a good sounding product.
And I agree, 100%. Reading can guide you but you need to listen to variety of components, and especially speakers to make a sound (pun intended) decision.
And also educate your ears with decent live performances too.
But it's priorities, and where good audio may have a high value for you, the same is not true for everyone, or their circumstances. |
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| Maik |
Sorry imraw, but I am quite happy with my Bose Lifestyle system for my home theater. Aside from the notion that for me the sound is quite pleasing, the system is extremely simple to use with little or no adjustment. I like the fact that the speakers are not a focal point in my room.
While there are no doubt, many better systems available, the Bose Lifestyle offers a good product at a reasonable price. For approx $2,000 the Bose is a complete system, including the receiver. The Paradigm reference system may well sound better, but my understanding is that the sugg retail is $4,500 and excludes a receiver. For me, at least, it is not worth the significant difference. |
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| Pauls MDX |
Let's see for $1,400 to $2,000 a system as small as the Bose that includes 5 speakers and a Subwoofer, receiver(dolby pro-logic), tuner and a dvd/cd player. All as compact as the Bose cubes. The system serves a specific purpose. Also if Bose is that bad a company why do so many auto manufacturers use their systems in their vehicles.
:D |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by Pauls MDX
Also if Bose is that bad a company why do so many auto manufacturers use their systems in their vehicles.
:D
But a lot of us are ripping out the Bose, Paul...you know that. Well, hey I am not about to say Bose sounds horrible. I've heard them. And I've heard them when they sounded better in other cars too. But I have heard much better for not much more money. But not self-contained systems, and certainly not with tiny speakers.
If it suits your purpose, enjoy it! One can improve on most anything. I have dabbled in audio systems since I was in my teens, and watched some amazing things happen. Next to my computer, my sound system gets upgraded fairly regularly. |
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| Maik |
| I am certainly no audiophile, but it seems to me that Bose has built a very good reputation over a lot of years selling products that are certainly not "low priced" products. They have sold a lot of systems to a lot of people who could certainly afford other options. Their sales are based on more than market and perception, but rather on performance. |
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| Pauls MDX |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
But a lot of us are ripping out the Bose, Paul...you know that. Well, hey I am not about to say Bose sounds horrible. I've heard them. And I've heard them when they sounded better in other cars too.
I was more referring to Acura choosing Bose as the radio to put in their SUV, yes people are ripping out the speakers and upgrading them, but I still feel they sound good enough for my ears not neccessary a more demanding listener. My wife's 2000 Maxima sounds excellent and have not heard of many Maxima owners upgrading their speakers. My basic point is that Bose is not entirely junk, yes overpriced in my opinion, but serve a purpose. |
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| nwaring |
IMRAW. You made reference to Monster Cables. Are they not good or just over priced for what you get? I just ordered/received a low-end sub for my AV system and bought a 12' "bass" monster cable to reach where I wanted to place the sub. Just wondering.
Thanks
Niles:) |
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| Pauls MDX |
quote:
Originally posted by nwaring
IMRAW. You made reference to Monster Cables. Are they not good or just over priced for what you get? I just ordered/received a low-end sub for my AV system and bought a 12' "bass" monster cable to reach where I wanted to place the sub. Just wondering.
Thanks
Niles:)
There are alot of different opinions on the high end cables really being needed. Alot of people say the human ear wouldn't be able to actually hear the difference. I know alot of high end stereo people who swear by them as a needed item for a high | | | |
