| perk |
I recently purchased the Tal and Hadas Bull Bar for my X. What a huge disappointment! It's nothing but a flimsy piece of crap, and I’ve already returned for a refund.
See original thread at http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/show...3815#post153815
All this came as quite a shock because I've been corresponding with Hugo Beaza at Tal and Hadas, USA for many months now in anticipation of their release of a new bull bar for the MDX. My goal was to get something to protect my bumpers because I’m moving back to Washington, DC at the end of July. Hugo and I corresponded via email and phone many times. Eventually, I bought Hugo's sales pitch and purchased the bull bar, along with a rear bumper bar.
Just to set the stage, here are a couple of the things Hugo told me BEFORE I purchased a bull bar.
1) On the issue of continual release delays. Hugo claimed the big wait was due to extensive certification required to sell the bull bar worldwide. That's important because he claimed that all this extra certification had the positive side effect of ensuring that each bull bar sold was much stronger and more capable than competing products.
2) On the issue of installation. Because I was worried about how strong the bar would be, I asked whether the product bolted to the frame. Hugo stated that the product does bolt to the frame. On this, he is technically correct but still misleading. The brackets bolt to the frame, the bar does not. That’s very important because the brackets are so long and flimsy that you can bend them with your bare hands.
3) On the issue of strength. As I continued to inquire about the strength of the bar, Hugo made the most outrageously misleading statement of all. Hugo claimed that this product had to undergo testing up to 20mph, implying that the product would withstand 20mph impacts. When I asked if that was even possible, he said, "I'm just telling you what we have to do in our worldwide certification process. I don’t know if it will take 20mph, but it should in order to get certification in some countries."
In fact, I now know that most of this is just complete BS. This product is so flimsy that even very minor contact during normal parking bends the entire bar and all four brackets all the way back into the MDX bumper. More on this. The T&H bull bar comes with four brackets designed to allow installation without cutting, welding, etc. While this does facilitate quick installation, the unfortunate side effect is four long, tiny, thin brackets that you can bend with your bare hands. I mean this literally, not figuratively. Even the bull bar itself is flimsy, weighing in at only 12 lbs. After I installed the bull bar, I noticed that I had only to push down with my body weight to bend all four brackets. I only weigh 160 pounds.
The next day I called Hugo Beaza to discuss what I saw with the bull bar. I thought perhaps I had received faulty brackets. This is what he told me AFTER I purchased the bull bar.
1) On the issue of strength. Hugo claimed now that the bull bar is only intended as a cosmetic item and that it wasn’t designed to actually contact anything. He went as far as to say, “all bull bars are just for looks.”
2) Also on the issue of strength. When I explained that I had bent all four brackets downward by merely putting my weight on the bull bar, Hugo further claimed that pushing down on the bar is going against how it was designed. He said it is only designed to take pressure from the front. Hugo claimed that even so, the bar would still handle much greater pressure directly from the front. (Does that sound to you like a contradiction to point 1)? It does to me also.)
3) Further on the issue of strength. When I incredulously asked how this thing could possibly withstand any pressure, when it can’t withstand a mere 160 lbs. down force, Hugo stated that 160 lbs. from the front should be no problem. I find that little comfort when I consider that the bar was supposed to be designed for use on a vehicle weighing more than two tons.
Finally, I told Hugo that I wanted to get a refund since the product was nothing like that which was advertised. Now here’s the great part. Hugo claimed that he didn’t misrepresent the product. He said that I could get a refund, but I had to pay for shipping AGAIN. In other words, even though he blatantly misrepresented the product, returning the products cost me another $80 (already paid $80 shipping to receive the bull bar). So, even after thorough and careful research to ensure that I purchased the correct item, I now have no bull bar and I’m out $160. Moral of the story—avoid Tal and Hadas altogether. |
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| zafer |
| Aren't these the new offers Tim has? |
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| perk |
| Yes, this is the same as the new bar offered by hondaacuraworld. I sent Tim an email a little while ago to alert him to this problem. |
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| DaleB |
Very disappointing news. Well, if you NEED a brush bar now, go for the Manik. It is not flimsy. I checked one out on a Highlander.
Personally, don't care for the styling.
Otherwise, wait for Westin, Go Rhino, etc. to step up to the bat. They don't make no junk. My vote goes for the Go Rhino front step bar. Solid and useful. Even has MDX part numbers, but still not in production.
Very expensive mistake. At least they did not try to charge you a restocking fee. I would write Auto Seattle too, as they are one of T&H's major outlets, and let them know they can expect a lot of returns. |
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| perk |
| I concur with your sentiments exactly. The Manik may not be what I was looking for initially, but it is at least very sturdy. I had the local dealer order one for me last Friday. Perhaps I should check out the go rhino before completing the purchase. Thanks for your comments. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by perk
I concur with your sentiments exactly. The Manik may not be what I was looking for initially, but it is at least very sturdy. I had the local dealer order one for me last Friday. Perhaps I should check out the go rhino before completing the purchase. Thanks for your comments.
Bars Go Rhino has..... |
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| perk |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Very disappointing news. Well, if you NEED a brush bar now, go for the Manik. It is not flimsy. I checked one out on a Highlander.
Personally, don't care for the styling.
Otherwise, wait for Westin, Go Rhino, etc. to step up to the bat. They don't make no junk. My vote goes for the Go Rhino front step bar. Solid and useful. Even has MDX part numbers, but still not in production.
Very expensive mistake. At least they did not try to charge you a restocking fee. I would write Auto Seattle too, as they are one of T&H's major outlets, and let them know they can expect a lot of returns.
DALEB
you mentioned that Go Rhino has MDX part numbers, but not yet in production. Where did you run across the MDX part numbers? |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by perk
DALEB
you mentioned that Go Rhino has MDX part numbers, but not yet in production. Where did you run across the MDX part numbers?
Go back to the GoRhino site where these are displayed there is a pdf file link you can click on around the middle of the page.
I have written these people before (I bought the rear hitch step) and asked them when they would go into production. They always told me there are no immediate plans. I still wonder if we either barraged them with emails, or a promise of group buy they might. You can stand on those bars, I doubt they are a problem.
Even if you had to get the framed drilled in a couple of places (which I doubt) might be worth it. |
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| perk |
| Thanks, I found it. I checked with go rhino again and they said that they did originally plan to build guards and bars for the MDX and X5, but they later decided it wasn't worth it and scrapped all plans to do so. Talked to someone higher in customer service and he told me that they have no plans to ever make products for the MDX. Oh well, that still leaves Manik. |
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| zhangg3 |
| Isn't there a Group buy going on now for the Genax front and rear bars? Might want to check that out. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by perk
Thanks, I found it. I checked with go rhino again and they said that they did originally plan to build guards and bars for the MDX and X5, but they later decided it wasn't worth it and scrapped all plans to do so. Talked to someone higher in customer service and he told me that they have no plans to ever make products for the MDX. Oh well, that still leaves Manik.
Thanks for going to all that trouble. That sucks. There are quite a few other manufacturers that makes guards for all kinds of Toytoas, Hondas, and Nissans. Maybe someday they will come around.
There may be a chance Manik will offer other styles too. We are no further along than we were a year ago, except for Genax.
If anyone gets a Genax, maybe show us how it is mounted and how well built it is. |
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| hondacuraworld |
| Unfortunately my supplier wasn't available yesterday to answer my concerns. I'm going to have to try again today, and post on the results of the conversation. |
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| T&H |
Hello To All members:
I was asked to comment on this thread simply because the record needs to be set straight. I will try to answer Perks comments one by one and hopefully clear some of these misconceptions.
1) I did explain to Perk that our bars go thru TUV certification and that these bars are put thru a battery of test by governing agencies, some of these test involve destroying the bar to see its strenght but the most important test is to see if the front of the vehicle is affected. All these tests are conducted under supervisied conditions.
2) As per line number 2. I was asked if the product bolted to the frame and my answer was yes. Companies answer technical questions every day and we try to answer them in "Layman" terms, in simple language so that the average consumer can understand; however we always suggest that a professional mechanic does the installation. Again brackets are designed to collapse, this is part of the Grill Guard, they are made so that in case of an accident they bend or brake to ensure that "YOU" the client, is protected and your vehicle reacts as if nothing was installed in the front.
3) It is unfortunate that this needs to be answered but I think this was a misunderstanding. We as a company can never make a statement of this kind. There are over 50 Brush Guard manufacturers in the US and not one will ever make a comment like this. First of all D.O.T. (department of transportation) conducts a 5 MPH bumper test on all vehicles sold in the United States. This test is to ensure that you are protected even in a small 5 MPH accident. If we were to design a bar that withstands a 20 MPH accident we would be undemining all engineering done by the Auto Industry.
I did speak to perk regarding his comments and during the conversation he stated that he "Jumped" up on the bar. I explained that the brackets are designed for frontal stability and strengh the bar weighs 15 pounds not 160.
1) I never stated that a Bar is for Cosmetic purposes only, I explained to Perk that we as a company sell a lot of bars in our Area Brooklyn, New York City and anyone who has tried to park here in this part of the country will tell you that 99% of the vehicles equiped with any type of "Off-Road " protection whether it is a Bull Bar or a Brush Guard primarily installs it for Bumper protection.
2) A comparison would be if you were to open your door on your MDX and hang from it, your door hinges and brackets will bend; however the door is designed to take a hit from a vehicle on a side impact. How is this possible? well engineers go thru a lot ot ensure that when the vehicle is hit, you the occupant are protected, however the door was not designed to hang from and the hinges will break even at 160 pounds. The same principle applies to our brackets.
3) See above.
To set the record straight I did not speak to perk regarding a return, as a matter of fact I offered to send a replacement bracket set for free as he was moving to Washington DC. I offered this out of good gesture for him being a member of this forum. Normally if a client damages the bar during install or conducting their own test we do not warrant the item. I even offered to replace the item but was told that he had no garage to do the install. We as a company stand behind all of our products but we strongly suggest that professional installation center be used to install our products.
As far a testing done by governing agencies we strongly discourage any reproduction of these test and will not be liable for misuse of our products.
T & H still offers to replace the items for Perk if so he desires.
Hugo Baeza
North American Division Manager |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by T&H
Hello To All members:
..........we strongly suggest that professional installation center be used to install our products.
Hugo Baeza
North American Division Manager
I do not want to get in the middle of any misunderstandings that may exist, but have a couple of concerns if you would be so kind as to address.
First of all, let me preface with a comment. I do not believe any members on here expect most of these bull bars to withstand extraordinary abuse, as might be experienced off-road.
However, we do want something a bit more than cosmetic. We are looking for a bar that will withstand the occassional tap in a parking situation. And perhaps sustain some minimal damage while protecting the plastic bumper cover from additional damage.
This is worse case.
Secondly, I do not understand why the bar requires professional installation. Are not existing holes in the frame use for attachment, or do additional holes have to be drilled?
If using existing holes, and attachment of bar and brackets is with conventional hardware, I feel most members are quite capable of performing the assembly, including torquing the fasteners to any established levels. Please advise further....
thank you. |
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| T&H |
Thank you for the question Dale:
As I mentioned in my previous post, most of our products are sold in metro areas. Since the introduction of Plastic bumpers on SUV's in the 80's, the bull bar has gained popularity. We as a company do make products that will last the life of your vehicle, as you mentioned most members will buy these bars to protect the expensive plastic bumper and yes our bars will withstand a simple "parking Lot' implication. The bars are made from T304 Stainless Steel they are round tubular design. This design allows for the bar to absorb the impact while protecting your bumper; However there are limitations and what some people conceder a small implication some others will conceder it an accident.
All of our products are designed for the "do it your self" enthusiast but unfortunately we do not know the mechanical abilities of the person that buys the products, this is the main reason why we always advice on professional installation. I am sure that most of the members are capable of this simple procedure but sometimes the most simple of installations can become the most complicated if the person does not understand or does not follow instructions. I am guilty myself of some of these mistakes as I have "skipped" reading instructions simply because I have a degree in engineering.
So to answer your question our products can be installed with simple hand tools if you follow the instructions.
I hope that I have answered your questions and please feel free to contact our office at any time should you have any more questions.
1-888-294-5907
T & H is proud to stand behind all of its products as we have for the past 25 years.
Thank you,
Hugo Baeza |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by T&H
I hope that I have answered your questions and please feel free to contact our office at any time should you have any more questions.
1-888-294-5907
T & H is proud to stand behind all of its products as we have for the past 25 years.
Thank you,
Hugo Baeza
Thank you for the prompt reply. |
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| nicksan |
I have both the bull bar and the rear bumper guard installed professionally by my local shop.
I am completely happy with it.
Just the other day I was parked out on the street.
Some idiot van driver delivering matresses decided to park in front of my MDX and bumped into it...actually bumped into the Bull bar. Not a scratch on the Bull bar or the MDX.
In fact I watched from outside the window of my girlfriend's apt. perfectly in comfort knowing that I have such protection. Didn't bother me one bit...except the fact that there was another idiot NY driver who could not give 2 carps about other people's beloved vehicles...
The styling is nice.
It makes my X stand out from the rest of the X's. That's cool.
I don't expect it to protect me if I get into a collision accident.
I bought it for parking bumps.
Why would you want to stand on the bull bar?
It never even entered my mind to do that.
Contrary to the negative comments posted here, the person at T & H was very, very nice and helpful and reassuring pre-sale.
I would recommened this to anyone looking for bumper protection from idiot drivers, while adding some "style" to your X!!! |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by nicksan
I have both the bull bar and the rear bumper guard installed professionally by my local shop.
I am completely happy with it.
Just the other day I was parked out on the street.
Some idiot van driver delivering matresses decided to park in front of my MDX and bumped into it...actually bumped into the Bull bar. Not a scratch on the Bull bar or the MDX.
In fact I watched from outside the window of my girlfriend's apt. perfectly in comfort knowing that I have such protection. Didn't bother me one bit...except the fact that there was another idiot NY driver who could not give 2 carps about other people's beloved vehicles...
The styling is nice.
It makes my X stand out from the rest of the X's. That's cool.
I don't expect it to protect me if I get into a collision accident.
I bought it for parking bumps.
Why would you want to stand on the bull bar?
It never even entered my mind to do that.
Contrary to the negative comments posted here, the person at T & H was very, very nice and helpful and reassuring pre-sale.
I would recommened this to anyone looking for bumper protection from idiot drivers, while adding some "style" to your X!!!
Can you possibly do some fotos under the car of the attachment point(s)? for the front bar? maybe at rear for those interested also...thanks. |
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| mdxxxx |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Can you possibly do some fotos under the car of the attachment point(s)? for the front bar? maybe at rear for those interested also...thanks.
Good idea. I'd be interested in seeing the photos myself... |
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| paul123 |
| Just purchased a few days ago will install in the next couple of weeks when I have my rear bumper replaced due to a rear end hit. The bar is very sturdy and solid, hooks directly to frame. |
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| paul123 |
2
Goes directly to the frame of vehicle |
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| paul123 |
4
My cat franky giving his approval |
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| paul123 |
5
My daughter Lara Helping DaDa with pic's |
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| paul123 |
7
Actually has a rubber cover over the metal for soft hits or touches during parking procedures. |
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| paul123 |
10
Really do like the rubber around the bar to protect for small taps. |
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| paul123 |
12
More pic's to follow in a separate thread once installed. Once I heard the Tal & hadas had a bracket between the Bar and the mount to the frame , I decided on the Genax Bar. |
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| paul123 |
| Here's Mushman's final pic once installed to get an idea |
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| catzx6 |
paul123:
Thanks for posting the pix, look forward to more after installation. BTW, you've got 2 cute helpers in Lara & Franky!:5: |
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| DaleB |
Nice pics Paul, and the prop handler is first class!
But that's the Genax, was hoping we see some pics of the T&H stuff too.
Genax looks like a straight forward design, about the way I would imagine it. I take it those flanges bolt against the hitch mounting flanges (if one were to have a hitch.) |
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| clb4life |
do you have the T&H bars installed? fronts only or both front and rear...
i am interested in the set, can you get some pics? that would be alot...thanks |
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| nicksan |
Guys,
I'll try to take some pics later today.
I was originally going to go with the brush guards, but I thought it took away from the great look of the X.
I think the Bull Bar complements the looks.
Nick |
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| T&H |
| Front Bottom Bracket attached to chassis |
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| T&H |
| Front Top Bracket Attached to chassis |
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| T&H |
| rear Bumper Mounting brackets attached to chassis |
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| paul123 |
| I love the look of the rear Tal & Hadas bar, but don't like the connection to the frame especially the bolt from bar to the bracket. Looks as if a small tap will bend the bar. Also don't like you can see the bolts and bracket from the rear. The front is still to much for a Mid-Size SUV, a little to thick and mounted to high above the bumper. The front mount is another issue with that thin bracket attachment, looks as if a small tap will make bar hit bumper. Just my personal opinion. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by paul123
I love the look of the rear Tal & Hadas bar, but don't like the connection to the frame especially the bolt from bar to the bracket. Looks as if a small tap will bend the bar. Also don't like you can see the bolts and bracket from the rear. The front is still to much for a Mid-Size SUV, a little to thick and mounted to high above the bumper. The front mount is another issue with that thin bracket attachment, looks as if a small tap will make bar hit bumper. Just my personal opinion.
It would be great if you could go check one out in person, Paul. I do like the Genax because if mounts lower. Less leverage available to flex the front bar it would seem.
While I like the style of the T&H it is a bit big. Decisions, decisions.....
I'm sticking with Go Rhino hitch step for the rear of my X. Just too good a deal if you have a hitch.
I find the side bars interesting. 3 big supports instead of the 2 mounts plus a small rear support as on the Maniks. Plus the steps look much more robust compared with the Manik. Too bad they were not around before Acura made chrome side steps available. |
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| paul123 |
| Yes, I totally understand what your going thru. I'm not loving the design of the rear genax but it connects like you said to the frame where the tow hitch connects and is very strong. As far as front goes I'm sticking with the stock lower trim for now. Genax is making the front bar without the fog light part which is a big improvement, and the genax is lower and smaller diameter bar. Presently they cannot go over my front trim, so I'm waiting on my front. The only solid rear is the Genax which looks alot like the Wagg and will do the job for back up and hitting cars in the city while parking. I also recently got rear-ended and have to replace my bumper, so after painted bumper goes on, the Genax bar follows. The guy who rear ended me settled out of insurance for a $1,000, so it will pay for the bumper, paint, bar, and body shop labor. Actually I'm still ahead by $250. Well I was rear ended sitting at a light, I deserve a little extra for the stress!!! |
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| DaleB |
Well, maybe you will be the tester for the newer Genax front bar or another member who doesn't have the lower trim.
They may have it in stainless by then. Kind of strange they would not release it in stainless to start with like all the other brands.
Yes the WAAG, Go Rhino, Westin, etc. all make such nice hardware. I think it may be a long while if and when they make something for the X.
Probably right after we buy something else.... :rolleyes: |
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| T&H |
Hello: I am actually pleased to see all these comments in the forum. frequently I visit forums on request from our vendors to answer questions regarding our products. This forum has provided us with information that hopefully will translate into better product.
I will make some comments on the mounting location of our products hopefully some of you will understand why we make the product the way we do.
1) Our rear bumper also mounts to the Tow-Hitch area, the reason why we make it 3 pc is so that in case the bar is damaged, you can purchase the brackets or bar individually. only as a replacement item.
2) Our front brackets are also design to "fail" at a predetermined point. we could make the brackets stronger than the chassis itself but as I stated before this would undermine all the work done by the auto industry.
If members have any further questions feel free to contact our office at 1-888-294-5907
thank you,
Hugo Baeza |
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| perk |
I just returned from vacation (shortly after move to D.C.) and noticed the many comments on this forum. I also noticed on my bank statement that I haven't been issued a refund for the T&H bull bar that brought about all the comments in the first place. Seems they found some "damage" during return shipping and now refuse to give a refund. Now, just think about it...this refund refusal raises two equally ridiculous possibilities. One, the bar is so flimsy it couldn't even survive UPS shipping without damage. Or two, the fallout from my forum posting caused such a stir at T&H that they decided to simply give me crap and refuse the refund.
So, on the first possibility we have a bar that was designed to protect a 4000 lb. SUV and it couldn't even survive UPS shipping without damage. If this is true, and I doubt it is, I trust the point about it's flimsiness is made, in spades! And on the second possibility we have a suppossedly reputable company who is so steamed at my comments that they decide juvenile retaliation is warranted. So choose your poison Hugo, which is it?
Anyone else out there see through this? I guess I should have kept my mouth shut until I got the refund. Come on Hugo, Geez! have some class and just issue the refund. My comments were for the benefit of other members and failing to issue a refund only makes things worse. |
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| crmsnidol |
quote:
Originally posted by perk
I just returned from vacation (shortly after move to D.C.) and noticed the many comments on this forum. I also noticed on my bank statement that I haven't been issued a refund for the T&H bull bar that brought about all the comments in the first place. Seems they found some "damage" during return shipping and now refuse to give a refund. Now, just think about it...this refund refusal raises two equally ridiculous possibilities. One, the bar is so flimsy it couldn't even survive UPS shipping without damage. Or two, the fallout from my forum posting caused such a stir at T&H that they decided to simply give me crap and refuse the refund.
So, on the first possibility we have a bar that was designed to protect a 4000 lb. SUV and it couldn't even survive UPS shipping without damage. If this is true, and I doubt it is, I trust the point about it's flimsiness is made, in spades! And on the second possibility we have a suppossedly reputable company who is so steamed at my comments that they decide juvenile retaliation is warranted. So choose your poison Hugo, which is it?
Anyone else out there see through this? I guess I should have kept my mouth shut until I got the refund. Come on Hugo, Geez! have some class and just issue the refund. My comments were for the benefit of other members and failing to issue a refund only makes things worse.
Possibility 1.
Barring a train derailment ;) during the shipping of your return via UPS, of course the bars would withstand shipping. They made it to your home in the first place didn't they? Maybe the damage was the original result of you stepping on them hmmmm? According to Hugo, the bars were not intended to protect your "4000 lb SUV" but to protect the bumpers from frontal impact.
Possibility 2.
It's quite possible that Hugo decided not to refund your order after seeing whatever damage you inflicted on them with the downforce of stepping on them. It's also possible that he had a change of heart in refunding your order once you publicly aired your grievances on this forum. To me, using his name in an inflammatory post was a no-no. At the point you first posted, he was working toward a resolution with you and yet you posted for all of us to read your negative experiences (which is perfectly fine to do). Hugo took the time to log into this forum and defend his product with concise answers to sometimes pointed questions. He's already lost you as a customer that's for sure. Although I have no desire to purchase bull bars or other bumper protection I would have no issues dealing with T&H after reading what's transpired on this thread so far.
Didn't Hugo offer to replace the bar you stood on and bent anyway? |
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| perk |
quote:
Originally posted by crmsnidol
Possibility 1.
Barring a train derailment ;) during the shipping of your return via UPS, of course the bars would withstand shipping. They made it to your home in the first place didn't they? Maybe the damage was the original result of you stepping on them hmmmm? According to Hugo, the bars were not intended to protect your "4000 lb SUV" but to protect the bumpers from frontal impact.
Possibility 2.
It's quite possible that Hugo decided not to refund your order after seeing whatever damage you inflicted on them with the downforce of stepping on them. It's also possible that he had a change of heart in refunding your order once you publicly aired your grievances on this forum. To me, using his name in an inflammatory post was a no-no. At the point you first posted, he was working toward a resolution with you and yet you posted for all of us to read your negative experiences (which is perfectly fine to do). Hugo took the time to log into this forum and defend his product with concise answers to sometimes pointed questions. He's already lost you as a customer that's for sure. Although I have no desire to purchase bull bars or other bumper protection I would have no issues dealing with T&H after reading what's transpired on this thread so far.
Didn't Hugo offer to replace the bar you stood on and bent anyway?
crmsnidol,
I'll put this as nicely as I can...you are either misinformed or have certain misapprehensions based on incorrect reading of my postings. |
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| crmsnidol |
quote:
Originally posted by perk
crmsnidol,
I'll put this as nicely as I can...you are either misinformed or have certain misapprehensions based on incorrect reading of my postings.
Enlighten me. |
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| perk |
First, the bar was not bent or otherwise damaged in any way when it was returned to T&H; only the brackets were bent. Remember, that was my beef in the first place. My first posting clearly (IMHO) articulated that the brackets bend easily because they are long, thin, and much too flimsy. In fact, they are so flimsy that they don't allow the bull bar to offer any real protection for the car OR the bumpers. My beef now is that T&H refuses to give refund because Hugo claims the "BAR" was damaged during shipping, not the brackets, which are low cost replacable items.
Second, I used Hugo's name because he is Manager of US operations for T&H, he is the one I actually spoke to, and because I believe specifics are always better than vague innuendo.
Third, I was not in the middle of working on a resolution with T&H when I made the post. The only thing T&H was working on at the time was a separate issue entirely. I didn't post anything on this because I didn't feel it was relevant, but if you must know, here goes. I ordered both the front and rear bar from T&H. The front was easily installed and you know all about that now. The rear, however, was never installed because the brackets sent would not work with the factory trailer hitch already installed on my MDX. When I called and spoke to Hugo, I had a number of concerns, only the least of which was the brackets for the rear bar. The fact that Hugo was still "working" on development of some functional brackets for the rear bar is irrelavent to the issue of how flimsy the front bar turned out, so I never mentioned it in my original posting. Hugo chose to make reference to this in his reply and I'm sorry but it appears only to have detracted from rather than address my true concerns.
Fourth, I don't read Hugo's responses as "precise." In fact, I don't see many substantive responses to my actual statements. What I do see are some vague responses to some of my concerns and some other answers and responses to issues other than what I actually complained of.
Hope this helps because, to paraphrase Forest Gump, that's about all I have to say about that. |
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| crmsnidol |
quote:
Originally posted by perk
First, the bar was not bent or otherwise damaged in any way when it was returned to T&H; only the brackets were bent. Remember, that was my beef in the first place. My first posting clearly (IMHO) articulated that the brackets bend easily because they are long, thin, and much too flimsy. In fact, they are so flimsy that they don't allow the bull bar to offer any real protection for the car OR the bumpers. My beef now is that T&H refuses to give refund because Hugo claims the "BAR" was damaged during shipping, not the brackets, which are low cost replacable items.
Hope this helps because, to paraphrase Forest Gump, that's about all I have to say about that.
Thanks. I didn't realize it was the brackets that bent and not the bar which is what is now under contention.
FWIW, the Acura SS sidesteps connect to the frame using brackets, albeit brackets that were engineered to withstand downward pressure much more than the T&H are. If I jumped up and down on them I would look silly but they wouldn't bend. I would expect the same as you with the bull bar and pressure applied. |
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| T&H |
Hello to All Members:
I guess the debate can go on "He Said"
" I said"
The issue is not the cost of the item but the validity of Perks comments.
We as a company go out of our way to try to solve the problem and try every conceivable option, Exchange, Refund, what ever it takes to make the client happy. We know that the customer is always right however when products are not installed properly and they are abused and not used for its intended use, we will defend the reputation of our products and our company.
To date we have sold over 200 sets and only one return "Perks." In this forum there has been several members that have had the products properly installed and they are happy campers.
As I said the debate can go on but at one point it must stop, I will instruct Autoseattle to issue a complete refund to Perk and our company will absorb the loss.
Point being to all members; when purchasing a product always consult the manufacturer and be honest with your mechanical abilities, this is a great hobby but remember these are not toys and someone can get killed or hurt due to poor installation. do not attempt to duplicate our test and follow the instructions.
To All members it has been a pleasure joining this forum and thank you for your interest.
Hugo Baeza |
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| crmsnidol |
| Classy all the way around. :4: |
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| paul123 |
| I still believe the issue is that the bar has to be strong enough to take a small hit, and should be attached directly to the frame. If you are looking for a purely cosmetic bar then the Tal & Hadas is the way to go, but if needed for protection, I don't believe this is the one for you. To each is own. |
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| T&H |
Thanks for the comments Paul:
As a matter of fact our bar does attach to the Frame assembly, once you remove the bottom plastic pan you gain access to the front crossmember. There are two 19mm factory screws that are used to attach our brackets to the frame.
The issue of strength has been addressed several times, I will gladly "Donate" our bar to be tested against any of our competitors, as I mentioned before TUV testing is one of the most difficult test to pass and our products do.
If this forum ever holds a "testing" session feel free to contact me and I will send a "production" unit from inventory for testing against any other Grill Guard manufacturer.
As you notice in my postings I believe that our company makes some of the best products in the market and we will always back up our claims.
Thank you,
Hugo Baeza |
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| paul123 |
quote:
Originally posted by T&H
Thanks for the comments Paul:
As a matter of fact our bar does attach to the Frame assembly, once you remove the bottom plastic pan you gain access to the front crossmember. There are two 19mm factory screws that are used to attach our brackets to the frame.
The issue of strength has been addressed several times, I will gladly "Donate" our bar to be tested against any of our competitors, as I mentioned before TUV testing is one of the most difficult test to pass and our products do.
If this forum ever holds a "testing" session feel free to contact me and I will send a "production" unit from inventory for testing against any other Grill Guard manufacturer.
As you notice in my postings I believe that our company makes some of the best products in the market and we will always back up our claims.
Thank you,
Hugo Baeza
Hugo, I like the look of the bar, but do not like the bracket that attaches in between the bar and the frame. For me the strength is very important, like you said it is made this way so you can replace should it be needed. I personally prefer a bar that would attach directly to the frame via a steel bar that way you can apply say 200 lbs. and the bar wouldn't bend. There are different products for different people. Like I said you cosmetic's are excellent the mounts could be better in my opinion, maybe not yours. This is my personal opinion, people may think different. |
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| T&H |
Hello To all Members:
This morning I receive Perk's "Bullbar" back from UPS claims, As I stated before I instructed Autoseattle to issue a complete refund I gave my word and to me this is worth more than the $ that it cost to replace the bar itself.
Upon inspection of the bar the following was brought up to my attention.
1) The bar had to come in contact with a solid stationary object made out of Concrete or similar (see pics attached) there are two markings at the same height.
2) The top bracket was modified, indicating that it was not installed properly, as I stated before poor mechanical skills and bad installation will always cause a problem.
Perk's quote:
First, the bar was not bent or otherwise damaged in any way when it was returned to T&H; only the brackets were bent. Remember, that was my beef in the first place. My first posting clearly (IMHO) articulated that the brackets bend easily because they are long, thin, and much too flimsy. In fact, they are so flimsy that they don't allow the bull bar to offer any real protection for the car OR the bumpers. My beef now is that T&H refuses to give refund because Hugo claims the "BAR" was damaged during shipping, not the brackets, which are low cost replaceable items.
I will continue to stand behind our company and products 100% we are a 25 year old company and our reputation speaks for itself, Honesty, integrity and customer loyalty is what makes us different and keeps our clients coming back.
Even after these findings I WILL KEEP MY WORD. This issue is finished.........
Again my thanks to all the Members of this forum and those who believe in our products. |
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| nicksan |
I don't get what all the fuss is about here.
I think hugo was clear on his defense.
The evidence speaks for itself.
I have the Bull bar and rear bumber bar and I am completely happy with it. T & H have been very acommodating in my purchase and installation by a professional. The prices are right too.
I never intended these additions to give me "Major" protection. I'll be honest, it was for looks and to avoid the occasion idiot Mall rat who doesn't know how to park or drive. In fact the Bull bar alreay saved me a few time in that regard.
Now I would not expect it to hold up in a moving accident or collision. In fact that would be scary to think that the bull bar would come crashing in to me. I would rather see it crumple and from what Hugo describes this was exactly the thought process that went into their product. How can you not appreciate that?
Also, I like the musclular looks of the bull bar. Some say it's too big. Nonsense! It's great.
I've been seeing a lot of MDX's out there. It's a great SUV and people are starting to catch on...Lexus, Infinity? YUK!!!
But mine, with the T & L "gear", I stand out from the crowd. When I street park in NYC to go for some chow, I ain't worried...yeah, go ahead back into my BULL! Let's see who gets the scars...not me!!!
Hugo, thanks for being helpful about all this.
I think you have a winner in your MDX products.
Keep up the great work!
Nick |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by nicksan
I don't get what all the fuss is about here.
I think hugo was clear on his defense.
The evidence speaks for itself.
I have the Bull bar and rear bumber bar and I am completely happy with it. T & H have been very acommodating in my purchase and installation by a professional. The prices are right too.
I never intended these additions to give me "Major" protection. I'll be honest, it was for looks and to avoid the occasion idiot Mall rat who doesn't know how to park or drive. In fact the Bull bar alreay saved me a few time in that regard.
Now I would not expect it to hold up in a moving accident or collision. In fact that would be scary to think that the bull bar would come crashing in to me. I would rather see it crumple and from what Hugo describes this was exactly the thought process that went into their product. How can you not appreciate that?
Also, I like the musclular looks of the bull bar. Some say it's too big. Nonsense! It's great.
I've been seeing a lot of MDX's out there. It's a great SUV and people are starting to catch on...Lexus, Infinity? YUK!!!
But mine, with the T & L "gear", I stand out from the crowd. When I street park in NYC to go for some chow, I ain't worried...yeah, go ahead back into my BULL! Let's see who gets the scars...not me!!!
Hugo, thanks for being helpful about all this.
I think you have a winner in your MDX products.
Keep up the great work!
Nick
So you find it 'tough enough' for the parking space taps without pushing the bar into the bumper?
Be curious how much pressure you would have to exert to bend it back into the bumper. The price is certainly more attractive than the Genax, although the Genax appears to be more robust. |
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| shootist |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
The price is certainly more attractive than the Genax, although the Genax appears to be more robust.
The T&H bar attaches at the bottom and the top, though. (Hugo showed a pic of the upper braces.) The Genax attaches only at the bottom, so a tap on the top of the bar would use the leverage of the whole bar to bend the bottom bracket.
While the T&H can be pushed "down" relatively easily, I betcha it can't be pushed "back" without the four brackets failing in compression. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by shootist
The T&H bar attaches at the bottom and the top, though. (Hugo showed a pic of the upper braces.) The Genax attaches only at the bottom, so a tap on the top of the bar would use the leverage of the whole bar to bend the bottom bracket.
While the T&H can be pushed "down" relatively easily, I betcha it can't be pushed "back" without the four brackets failing in compression.
I agree, but I am trying to determine if perk's experience is a glitch and not truly representative of how the bar can provide some direct impact protection (typical parking 'tap'). Jumping up and down on it is obviously not how it is intended to be used.
So far more people have purchased the Genax and I have not yet read any complaints.
You could have 2 very strong lower supports, that will not even bend with a fair amount of VERTICAL force. Or you could have 4 weaker supports that together offer as much resistance to compression. The Genax is likely stiffer IF the brackets are thicker, plus note the bar is also mounted much lower which will provide less leverage on compression.
Robustness of either product is only a perception at this point. |
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| paul123 |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
I agree, but I am trying to determine if perk's experience is a glitch and not truly representative of how the bar can provide some direct impact protection (typical parking 'tap'). Jumping up and down on it is obviously not how it is intended to be used.
So far more people have purchased the Genax and I have not yet read any complaints.
You could have 2 very strong lower supports, that will not even bend with a fair amount of VERTICAL force. Or you could have 4 weaker supports that together offer as much resistance to compression. The Genax is likely stiffer IF the brackets are thicker, plus note the bar is also mounted much lower which will provide less leverage on compression.
Robustness of either product is only a perception at this point.
Very well said DaleB, the genax is just as strong in the upward or downward side. The bar is thick steel that attaches to the Tow Hitch area. I could actually pull a vehicle attaching a rope to the genax bar. The Hitch for Towing the SUV has to be removed when attaching the Genax bar, so the new tow hitch for pulling the SUV up on a Flatbed Tow-truck is now the Genax bar. |
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| nicksan |
I can't say for certain regarding the technical specifics of "bump tolerance" but I can say that a van was trying to park in front of me and bumped the bull bar. It moved the entire car, I was looking out from my friend's apt. I quickly darted out to check out the "damage". There was none. Bull bar looked fine, my MDX looked fine. I'm sure if I didn't have the bar on, it would have left a pretty good sized scratch on my bumper.
I haven't checked out the Genex stuff. I'm sure they are fine products. I was happy with the T & L both cosmetically and functionally. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by paul123
Very well said DaleB, the genax is just as strong in the upward or downward side. The bar is thick steel that attaches to the Tow Hitch area. I could actually pull a vehicle attaching a rope to the genax bar. The Hitch for Towing the SUV has to be removed when attaching the Genax bar, so the new tow hitch for pulling the SUV up on a Flatbed Tow-truck is now the Genax bar.
But you are talking about the rear guard. I suppose we can conclude the strength of the front bar is also high, because of a similar design? |
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| perk |
Some of you may remember my earlier posts regarding the flimsy Tal & Hadas Bull Bar. I bought it, then sent it back for refund because it was so flimsy that you couldn't even stand on it without all four flimsy brackets bending. Because I still needed a bar to protect the front from careless DC drivers and parking lots, I went ahead with the Manik Bull Bar. It is anything but flimsy. Although I didn't want all the size and extra girth to the bar, I like it now that it's installed.
Comparison.
T&H bull bar - about 10 lbs total.
Manik bar - about 85 lbs total.
T&H bull bar - hollow, VERY thin stainless steel
Manik bar - completely solid stainless steel
T&H bull bar - 4 very thin and flimsy brackets
Manik b | | | |
