| trixie |
| We're out of gas! Nearly all stations in Maricopa County are closed and the few that are open have lines that take between one and three hours. A gas line leak cut our supply and who knows when the EPA will complete their investigation and allow the supply to resume. Special blend gas prevents import of fuel from TX or CA. The situation sucks and brings to light just how much we depend on our wheels. |
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| vicpai |
| ........Toyota Prius hybrid is now the envy of all the neighbors! :D |
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| jurincie |
I just saw on www.azcentral.com this morning that some stations have been charging up to $4 a gallon! Hope you guys get the pipeline fixed soon.
A former resident....... |
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| rvehock |
| Arizona is in need of some anti-gouging laws like we have here in Florida. I lived in the greater Phoenix area for 27 years and I feel bad for my family members and close friends that have to endure this type of gouging :3: :3: :3: :3: :3: :3: :3: :3: |
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| mdefrances |
All discussions relating to what type of gas to put in your MDX (regular or supreme) don't mean a thing when you don't have any grades available. This morning's Arizona Republic had an item about a driver filling up his SUV (not an MDX I hope) and HIS BOAT while more than two dozen cars were waiting in line. The governor say to stay "cool" and things will be ok. Yeah, and its a dry heat, too. Almost makes me want to move back to California.
Mark D:soapbox: |
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| mdxxxx |
| Wow, I just drove through Phoenix last week. I guess I just missed it. I was just praising Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Louisiana on how affordable the gas compared to prices here in Cali. (Not to mention real estate prices)... |
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| neide |
I'm here in Phx, and yeah this does kind of suck.
But I'm not one who's all worried about gouging. Seems to me, if we let the FREE MARKET do its thing, the problem would take care of itself.
Let the price go to 5.00. Then only people who had to would be filling up, and the demand would go back down. Problem solved. And the high prices would only last a short time.
Its called CAPITALISM. |
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| SonShine |
This has gotten really annoying because of the "panic mentality". Now, because a lot of people have been buying and filling up gas containers, I probably will have to try and fill up in the middle of the night to avoid waiting for 1-2 hrs.
Also, something should have been done before waiting for the past two weeks (i.e. asking for temporary relaxation of the EPA laws regarding our fuel blend).
Argh! |
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| mdxxxx |
quote:
Originally posted by SonShine
This has gotten really annoying because of the "panic mentality". Now, because a lot of people have been buying and filling up gas containers, I probably will have to try and fill up in the middle of the night to avoid waiting for 1-2 hrs.
Also, something should have been done before waiting for the past two weeks (i.e. asking for temporary relaxation of the EPA laws regarding our fuel blend).
Argh!
Yeah, CAPITALISM at it's finest...:rolleyes: |
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| Emerald01 |
quote:
Special blend gas prevents import of fuel from TX or CA.
So why does the gas crisis in AZ affect the gas prices in CA? I pretty sure our gas prices are still higher than AZ even with their crisis. Gas manufacturers look for any reason to raise gas prices. :rolleyes: |
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| neide |
So wait, so you guys want the goverment to control the prices?
Do you want that in your industry? Sorry, but I'd prefer to sell things at the price that I can get for them, not the price that the goverment determines.
C'mon guys, you took Econ 101, right?
Capitalism doesn't always make everyone happy every day, but ulitmately it makes everything as fair as it can be. With gas, we're not talking about a monopoly at all, but an industry with a lot of competition.
As far as gas prices here, they are ranging from $2-$5/gallon right now. |
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| xcel |
Hi Trixie:
___We had the X in Phoenix late last week but escaped on the day some 7 stations had reportedly run out of gas. Fortunately for us, we filled up when we arrived and left without having to fill up again until Gallup, NM.
___Mdefrances, the Octane may not matter but your mileage will now. The X can get 30 mpg + in light traffic w/ the proper technique if you know what I mean ;)
___As for prices in California, you have been $2.00/gallon type high from early spring through summer, right? As for the rest of us poor blokes, supposedly we will be hit by the 6 or 7 refineries that were down for a 24 hour period during the Black out of 03 in the upper Atlantic states. Ya, right, the Brooklyn Bridge costs how much again … Capitalism at its finest :3:
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| rvehock |
quote:
Originally posted by xcel
Hi Trixie:
The X can get 30 mpg + in light traffic w/ the proper technique if you know what I mean ;)
Wayne,
Can you please share the secret to getting 30+ MPG out of our X, what exactly is your technique, inquiring minds want to know:confused: :confused: :confused: |
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| mdefrances |
Wayne, I did some serious coasting yesterday on the way home and it helped the mileage a bit. Unfortunately, there aren't many hills on the way to my place in the northeast valley.
I read where some gas was being sent to Arizona from California via another pipeline and gas tankers. Also read that the reformulated gas used in CA is different than the reformulated gas used in AZ although both contain MBTE. The Phoenix Metro area has that reformulated gas requirement but other, rural parts of the state don't. Something about the air quality and the EPA.
When I lived in Northern CA and worked for Bechtel, we built an addition to a Shell refinery there to process "cleaner burning fuel" with MBTE. Now California is trying to ban that stuff because it's toxic and so is Arizona.
Anyway, my wife found a Mobil station this morning that had premium gas ($2.17/gallon) and got our two Acura's filled up. We were pretty low in both of them. (Down to 25 miles on the TSX trip computer). I take the bus to work everyday from a park 'n ride and the population on the express bus trip has almost doubled.
MarkD |
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| xcel |
Hi Rvehock:
___I posted some of these suggestions in the “You aren’t going to believe this!” thread but I just received another 30.3 mpg coming back home from work (over 90 miles) in Chicago’s finest morning traffic on Tuesday. Hopefully some of these tips will work for you.- Always place the X on cruise at 25 + mph.
- Accelerate with a fragile egg between your right foot and the pedal. I mean really fragile …
- Never let the X stop if at all possible.
- Always leave as many car lengths between you and the driver in front as reasonable when driving in traffic if at all possible. Many will swerve in to fill the gap but just let them and develop another gap. It will save you from using the brakes time and time again.
- Follow the 18 wheelers as they know how to keep their rigs moving in traffic.
- When breaching hills while in cruise, use the decelerate button to keep the X from downshifting.
- Use all the above with some form of road etiquette in mind if possible. Not all drivers enjoy following another with a 5 + car gap in front of them in traffic even if they aren’t going to get where they want to go any faster?
___Mdefrances, hopefully Phoenix will be back up and running ASAP.
___For the rest of the Phoenix members, I wish you the best of luck with the current fuel situation.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| frostyra |
quote:
Originally posted by mdefrances
it's toxic and so is Arizona.
Yikes! I didn't know that Arizona was toxic. I'll call some friends in Phoenix tonight to warn them.:eek: |
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| xcel |
Hi Frostya:quote:
Yikes! I didn't know that Arizona was toxic. I'll call some friends in Phoenix tonight to warn them.
:19: Now that was a good one.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| Dale MDX |
quote:
Gas manufacturers look for any reason to raise gas prices. [/B]
Can anyone name an industry that DOESN'T do this, or wouldn't if they could get away with it?
Cars?
Computers and electronics? Well the would if they could.
Food? Notice how fast prices go up at the mere hint of a shortage, then come down very slowly, just like gas prices?
Most companies, when given the chance to increase their profits, take it. Gas companies aren't extra evil or unique in this regard.
Apartment rent/housing? Nope. (If you think you can sell your house for more money in the same amount of time, would you give a discount instead?) Does anyone on eBay want to sell to a lower bidder?
(I don't work for a gas company or related industy, and I'm not really defending them. They definitely take advantage of situations, just as other businesses do). |
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| xcel |
Hi Dale MDX:
___Except with Computer parts, food, and housing, we have choices. When Memory is high, I don’t buy it. When boards are high, I substitute or don’t buy at all. When meat is high, I purchase poultry. When Pork is high, I purchase hamburger … When gas is high, I don’t really have a choice :( I search like hell around the area looking for the best price but sometimes, I have to fill up when the price is really really wrong :3:
___For another topic, I have always wanted you to discuss the Hybrid experience. I am not only fascinated by the technology but am always interested in real world usage of them. I hope that someday you start a thread in another part of the forum (General Off Topic) and discuss your likes/dislikes etc.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by neide
Capitalism doesn't always make everyone happy every day, but ulitmately it makes everything as fair as it can be. With gas, we're not talking about a monopoly at all, but an industry with a lot of competition.
Are you sure that wasn't Enron 101?
And if there was a lot of competition how come it never drives the price down? Utimately, it will get better? How long is that? About the same as 'eventually'? |
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| Aric |
quote:
Originally posted by Dale MDX
Can anyone name an industry that DOESN'T do this, or wouldn't if they could get away with it?
Cars?
Computers and electronics? Well the would if they could.
Food? Notice how fast prices go up at the mere hint of a shortage, then come down very slowly, just like gas prices?
Most companies, when given the chance to increase their profits, take it. Gas companies aren't extra evil or unique in this regard.
Apartment rent/housing? Nope. (If you think you can sell your house for more money in the same amount of time, would you give a discount instead?) Does anyone on eBay want to sell to a lower bidder?
(I don't work for a gas company or related industy, and I'm not really defending them. They definitely take advantage of situations, just as other businesses do).
No industry but big oil gets away with this. It's not like I have a choice to buy it. I need it to go to work and feed my family.
Food shortage? What are you talking about. Can't think of a time when there was one of those. |
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| Aric |
BTW my commute is 60 miles round trip everyday.
Most of it is freeway driving but of course due to traffic, that can be stop and go.
Anyway, my average MPG is usually around 17.2 mpg.
Now, due to the shortage, I've been trying to be a little less lead footed (soo hard to do :rolleyes: ) and I shift in to Neutral anytime I am slowing down. My average has climbed to 22.4 mpg.
Amazing! I think most of that has to do with the shifting to Neutral. You would think they would have an economy mode on the transmission that would do that, if it improves MPG by 5 MPG! |
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| Aric |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Are you sure that wasn't Enron 101?
And if there was a lot of competition how come it never drives the price down? Utimately, it will get better? How long is that? About the same as 'eventually'?
Exactly. Most utility prices are regulated by the corporation commission. These are things the government deems important enough (i.e. staples of life) that they need to control them. Obviously gas should be included!! |
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| trixie |
Our crisis my be over. I purchased gas tonight without a wait.
As for gouging, reports may be over rated. At the hight of the panic, most stations (those few that were selling) were still charging less than $2/gallon for regular. I believe that the rapid rate of sale allowed dealers to make a very healthy profit. Can you believe that a tanker load of gas can sell in as little as four hours when all pumps are blazing?
Somebody should go to jail over our crisis. It is hard to believe that one of America's largest cities could be brought to it's knees so easily. Why couldn't the governor request a temporary waiver of the special "Maricopa blend"? Our bureaucratic system must be more flexible if crisis situations are to be prevented. So, what's the next artificial shortage...bread, electricity, water? |
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| mdxxxx |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Are you sure that wasn't Enron 101?
And if there was a lot of competition how come it never drives the price down? Utimately, it will get better? How long is that? About the same as 'eventually'?
Precisely! People can take anything to the extreme, including the theory of pure capitalism. Enron was a prime example. |
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| DaleB |
Of course whenever the oil companies have to make a change like adding or removing MTBE in California, it's 'going to cost us money'. Hey, you supposedly have some of the best chemical engineers, is MTBE the best someone could come up with?
They make it sound like we are sharing their burden, when in fact we are CARRYING it.
Or because they can't drill in some crtical part of Alaska, so they can reduce our dependency on Middle East oil. Then prices will go lower. Just like all those other times they were given drilling rights, it just drove prices right down, didn't it?
They already spent billions on the lastest high tech portable platforms so they could drill further off shore and reduce potential damage to the ecology while tapping new oil reserves. Gee, what's that all about? That started over 2 years ago.
They 'talk about' alternate fuel for saving our reserves and reducing dependency on foreign oil. It's all talk...that's one thing they do very well. Why aren't they working with the automotive giants and doing just that? Because the profits are not there for either industry, that's why. |
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| SonShine |
The ironic thing about this issue in terms of lack of government help in getting more supply (i.e. by asking for the lifting of the ban earlier) is that all the folks who have the "dual-fuel" SUVs that have propane tanks (and qualified for those major tax incentives and caused the scandal awhile ago that led to ouster of state government officials) actually have some value now!
Of course, they still qualify as "alternative fuel vehicles" whether they ever run on propane or not, and gas/electric hybrids don't...
Fun state we have here...:p
P.S. Has anyone found premium in the East Valley recently? We have probably slightly more than 1/4 tank left in our X... |
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| Aric |
quote:
Originally posted by trixie
Our crisis my be over. I purchased gas tonight without a wait.
...Why couldn't the governor request a temporary waiver of the special "Maricopa blend"? ...
Actually they did. We can have non-oxygenated fuel for sale in Phoenix for the next 30 days. I think it took them 1 day too long, but they had to get approval from the EPA. |
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| Aric |
quote:
Originally posted by SonShine
The ironic thing about this issue in terms of lack of government help in getting more supply (i.e. by asking for the lifting of the ban earlier) is that all the folks who have the "dual-fuel" SUVs that have propane tanks (and qualified for those major tax incentives and caused the scandal awhile ago that led to ouster of state government officials) actually have some value now!
Of course, they still qualify as "alternative fuel vehicles" whether they ever run on propane or not, and gas/electric hybrids don't...
Fun state we have here...:p
P.S. Has anyone found premium in the East Valley recently? We have probably slightly more than 1/4 tank left in our X...
I haven't (yes I'm in the East Valley) but I checked my owner's manual and the boards here, and it turns out there's not a huge need to run premium in your truck. I'm on my second tank of regular in my MDX now. (Yes it took the shortage to get me to put regular in, and I may go back to premium once it's available (and under $2/gal)). |
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| SonShine |
Oh - I know that it's ok to run regular in the X (I have a friend who does it exclusively), but I guess I'm just particular ;)
If I have to, I'll get 87. But, I'm still willing to pay more for 91 - it's not that much over the long run, and if it makes only a small difference, well...I'll live with it :p |
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| neide |
Um, gas isn't a utility. Although they do endure some of the regulations. You do have a choice when you buy gas - there isn't just one provider. (Unlike electricity, phone, etc.) If they were a legitmate monopoly, I would feel differently, as monoplies aren't subject to the normal rules of a free market - but its not even close in this space. There is literally dozens of providers, and pretty decent competition.
You may need gas to live, but you need food too - should the govt regulate that price? What's next?
Hey - I don't want to pay more for gas either. Who does? My budget is pretty tight these days. And people can vote with their dollars. If you see a gas station charging $5 and that pisses you off, don't go there again. Ever. Tell all of your friends and get them not to go. That's your right and that's how you affect the behavoir of any business. That I'll defend - even though I'd never do it. I just don't want the govt getting involved and messing it up further. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by neide
Hey - I don't want to pay more for gas either. Who does? My budget is pretty tight these days. And people can vote with their dollars. If you see a gas station charging $5 and that pisses you off, don't go there again. Ever. Tell all of your friends and get them not to go. That's your right and that's how you affect the behavoir of any business. That I'll defend - even though I'd never do it. I just don't want the govt getting involved and messing it up further.
Of course, as with anything, the public should use some discretion, vote with their dollars, etc.
Gas station operators are working within tight constraints on the price of gas. That does not mean some will not take advantage of the situation as it relates to the market at any given time, and rip off the public.
You don't want the govt involved and messing it up. But where do you draw the line? They already dictate how fuel is to be transported for the utmost safety. Otherwise there could be chaos, and as a result of competition, the low bidder may be practicing very dangerous transportation techniques to save money. Oh, I see, but that kind of involvement is ok.
The government reigns in the stock market, and controls the flow of money within certain boundaries, and the list goes on. And the government is why in general, we do not have more monopolies than we have, because of controls built into our laws.
Many of these things the government does at our bidding, because we want to feel safe and protected from individuals, or corporations with reckless agendas.
I am not advocating the govt. step in and fix pricing on gasoline. That will not happen. One reason, is the government already has
some influential politicians getting very wealthy by leaving things just the way they are.
So I don't think you need to worry about them messing up something that is already in need of repair. |
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| neide |
One last observation, then I'm done.
If its so "messed up" why do we have the lowest prices in the civilized world? And why is gas cheaper then milk? And probably cheaper than bottled water?
:4: |
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| Aric |
quote:
Originally posted by neide
Um, gas isn't a utility. Although they do endure some of the regulations. You do have a choice when you buy gas - there isn't just one provider. (Unlike electricity, phone, etc.) If they were a legitmate monopoly, I would feel differently, as monoplies aren't subject to the normal rules of a free market - but its not even close in this space. There is literally dozens of providers, and pretty decent competition.
You may need gas to live, but you need food too - should the govt regulate that price? What's next?
Hey - I don't want to pay more for gas either. Who does? My budget is pretty tight these days. And people can vote with their dollars. If you see a gas station charging $5 and that pisses you off, don't go there again. Ever. Tell all of your friends and get them not to go. That's your right and that's how you affect the behavoir of any business. That I'll defend - even though I'd never do it. I just don't want the govt getting involved and messing it up further.
Actually in Phoenix, there is only one gas supplier (according to the news here). Kinder Morgan (sp?).
And with all the stations being out, if you pass up that station charging $5 a gallon, there's a chance you won't get gas before you run out.
Lastly, about half the states have anti-gouging laws. We happen to be one that doesn't. |
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| Aric |
quote:
Originally posted by neide
One last observation, then I'm done.
If its so "messed up" why do we have the lowest prices in the civilized world? And why is gas cheaper then milk? And probably cheaper than bottled water?
:4:
That's easy. Most countries have taxes on gas well over $1 per gallon.
Right now there is a federal tax of 18¢ per gallon, and in Arizona a state tax of 18¢ per gallon. I believe in England their tax is around $2 per gallon. |
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| neide |
| Their tax is $2/gallon, but gas costs $6-7 gallon. Tax is not the only reason, my friend. |
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| DaleB |
| Then what's the point? $2 a gallon is justified, because the UK pays more? The UK pays more than just about any country in the free world, that does not mean we don't have a problem, just less of a problem. And anti-gouging laws at local governments may certainly be one reason. |
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| neide |
Honestly, I can't say that $2 gallon is justified. I don't know - the only point was to say the the price difference in europe is not only becaue of taxes.
I think well intended people confuse moral business practices with legal ones. If I owned a gas station, which I don't (but do own a small business of my own), I would never raise prices in a situation like this, as long as I could afford to keep the doors open - because I don't think its a moral thing to do, and I think it would come back to haunt me in the long run. Treat people the way you'd like to be treated. That being said, I don't want the goverment legislating morality - at least not at that level - and that may be where the true difference in our opinion lies.
I think we all agree that "gouging" is a immoral practice, and so we've got that as common ground. I'm happy to leave it there - and agree to disagree on the rest, but I do appreciate the value of the debate. Thanks, all. :) |
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| mdxxxx |
| Again, I don't think there is any disagreement on whether Enron exectutives commited both immoral and illegal acts. One has to understand that free markets are not a licence for criminal activity. Thats why we have agencies like the SEC. I'm sure some would like to dismantle the SEC, and let everyone 'run wild', until however, it affects their life or pocketbook. :rolleyes: |
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| msu79gt82 |
| FYI: Price gouging during a declared crisis (e.g. hurricane) is illegal in the state of Texas. I'm surprised what is happening is legal there. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by msu79gt82
FYI: Price gouging during a declared crisis (e.g. hurricane) is illegal in the state of Texas. I'm surprised what is happening is legal there.
But that's how legislation gets generated. Unfortunate for the people in the meantime. But it was a sad day in other states too before the laws were past.
I sympathize with the station owners really. They have to be running on a small profit margin to make ends meet. But I could never sanction taking advantage of the public when times get real tough.
I know some local media was tracking such places before so the public could see who was doing it, and avoid patronizing them in the future.
At the same time, they would publicize the stations with the lowest prices that week.
The gas companies could go a long way in establishing a more professional relationship with their stations, rather than just look at them as a terminal point. Then at least we would know they would be putting more of our money into customer service, and maybe end the pump yourself lines once and for all. If they won't lower the prices then at least give us more for what we pay.
The Mobil stations were known for great service in the old days, they also put more profit back into research than the other companies combined. With the merger with Exxon it is obvious oil giants want nothing to do with that 'attitude'. |
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| xcel |
Hi All:
___At least its not just the taxes that are causing the disparity … This report from Jan 02 entitled “Survey of State and Local Gasoline Taxes” for the Minnesota House of Representatives gives the ~ run down on taxes added to a gallon of gasoline not including specific cities with their own tax additions.code:
1 New York 0.3538
2 Hawaii 0.3445
3 Nevada 0.3370
4 California 0.2967
5 Connecticut 0.2954
6 Florida 0.2940
7 Rhode Island 0.2900
8 Illinois 0.2809
9 Michigan 0.2798
10 Montana 0.2780
11 Wisconsin 0.2760
12 Pennsylvania 0.2650
13 Idaho 0.2600
14 West Virginia 0.2565
15 Delaware 0.2484
16 Washington 0.2480
17 Nebraska 0.2480
18 Utah 0.2480
19 North Carolina 0.2455
20 Oregon 0.2440
21 South Dakota 0.2400
22 Maryland 0.2350
23 Maine 0.2320
24 Ohio 0.2200
25 Colorado 0.2200
26 Minnesota 0.2200
27 Arkansas 0.2170
28 North Dakota 0.2130
29 Kansas 0.2100
30 Iowa 0.2100
31 Massachusetts 0.2100
32 Tennessee 0.2040
33 Texas 0.2013
34 Louisiana 0.2006
35 Vermont 0.2000
36 Dist. Columbia 0.2000
37 Indiana 0.1973
38 New Hampshire 0.1950
39 Alabama 0.1940
40 Arizona 0.1900
41 Mississippi 0.1876
42 Virginia 0.1872
43 Missouri 0.1870
44 New Mexico 0.1800
45 Oklahoma 0.1700
46 South Carolina 0.1675
47 Kentucky 0.1640
48 Georgia 0.1502
49 New Jersey 0.1450
50 Wyoming 0.1400
51 Alaska 0.0800
___Not that this helps any of us of course but why would formulations cost upwards of $0.60 to $0.70 per gallon when comparing lets say Missouri where I filled up for just $1.43 last week and $2.00 + for states like California? Just some food for thought.
___I was really after the local gas price web site. I didn’t find it with a Google search but many similar to the above appeared. If any of you have that local gas price page bookmarked, I would sure appreciate it if you would throw the link my way. Some of the locals hit $1.75 yesterday :3:
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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