| HARDROCK |
Went in for an oil change service at 26K and the service writer recommended a fuel injection flush, sight unseen. Knowing next to nothing about engines and wanting to do the best for my X, while being totally wary of the "extras" service writers try to con you with, I was caught in the middle. This time I said "YES" and paid the extra $140 for the "service".
Driving home from the dealership and thinking about the rest of the errands I had yet to do today, I noticed my X was a bit more quicker on acceleration than it had been and I found myself having to readjust my speed and braking distances.
Was this just a self-generated illusion to justify spending the extra money or did the flush really make a difference? When and under what conditions should the fuel injectors be flushed?
The service was under a part kit #210-3 "Intake Kit" for a cost of $59.95, with a labor cost of $80.05. Almost all of my 26K mileage is in 2 tears of city driving and I burn 91 octane gas exclusively. |
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| frostyra |
| My dealer wanted to do the same last week at my 30K mile service. Since it's not required or recommended in the manual, I declined. I'd bet that you could get 90% of the effect by running a can of Techron Concentrate through your gas tank every 10K or so. What do the Techron fans on this board think? |
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| DaleB |
The 'kit' sounds like a ripoff. Are you paying for the same adapter they would use for any MDX, plus some cleaner to run through the injectors?
Typically, they just tap into the fuel rail and feed the injectors a concentration of cleaner. Hopefully, they changed the oil AFTER this process.
At 26K miles I would not expect that much improvement, unless you have been using substandard gas and/or never added any cleaner yourself. It's hard to say. |
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| HARDROCK |
| Never used any cleaner but will research for the future. |
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| m2pc |
| Techron is great. BG44K is better. BG44K also has a 3 step cleaning system and is more complete as are some sytems that (like Motorvac) tap into the fuel rail and do a more complete job of cleaning. Some cars will need it and others don't really need it. I heard that the the BG44K stuff is really harsh, so you don't want to use it all the time. What product did they use? |
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| JeffK |
IMHO a RIPOFF.
Your seat of the pants driving conclusions, is an illusion.
Next time READ YOUR MANUAL before you go into service.
No where in the manual is this service recommended. |
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| hammermdx |
quote:
Originally posted by JeffK
IMHO a RIPOFF.
Your seat of the pants driving conclusions, is an illusion.
Next time READ YOUR MANUAL before you go into service.
No where in the manual is this service recommended.
What he said!:7: |
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| sgtglok |
I had the service done at 25k - it costed me $90. Mostly as a gratitude to the dealer for saving me over $200 (went to a local dealer, needed only inspection sticker, got quoted over $600 for breaks replacement, warped rotors, wheel alignment - went to these guys - I got my MDX from them - rotors were fine, balanced the tires, and all fine, only replaced the breaks). After the engine flush I did also notice a performance increase and also did think it was my mind playing tricks (I posted about this a while back). Now, my mileage average is 16, 95% all NYC city driving. I used to average barely at 14. All without changing the driving habbits. I do not argue - it may not be needed or recommended by the service manual, I state what I noticed.
BTW, K&N filters, hp boosting chips are not recommended there either, yet they seem to work (or just give you the same 'mind trick' effect). |
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| HARDROCK |
sgtglok
Thanks for your reply - I feel a little less cheated...
I really hope it does make a difference in gas mileage - the best I get in the city is 13-14 MPG - much less than I read from most others on this board. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by sgtglok
I had the service done at 25k - it costed me $90. Mostly as a gratitude to the dealer for saving me over $200 (went to a local dealer, needed only inspection sticker, got quoted over $600 for breaks replacement, warped rotors, wheel alignment - went to these guys - I got my MDX from them - rotors were fine, balanced the tires, and all fine, only replaced the breaks). After the engine flush I did also notice a performance increase and also did think it was my mind playing tricks (I posted about this a while back). Now, my mileage average is 16, 95% all NYC city driving. I used to average barely at 14. All without changing the driving habbits. I do not argue - it may not be needed or recommended by the service manual, I state what I noticed.
BTW, K&N filters, hp boosting chips are not recommended there either, yet they seem to work (or just give you the same 'mind trick' effect).
Good yardstick .... mileage...around 16 city to over 22 in the highway suggests everything is running fine. Assuming the X runs smoothly and does everything you expect it to do.
A drop off in mileage is a better indicator than seat-of-the-pants performance runs. A least it is something that can measured with some degree of accuracy.
Great departures from those numbers suggests you got a leadfoot like the guy on the commercial, or something is out of whack. |
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| sgtglok |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Good yardstick .... mileage...around 16 city to over 22 in the highway suggests everything is running fine. Assuming the X runs smoothly and does everything you expect it to do.
A drop off in mileage is a better indicator than seat-of-the-pants performance runs. A least it is something that can measured with some degree of accuracy.
Great departures from those numbers suggests you got a leadfoot like the guy on the commercial, or something is out of whack.
Most people on this board, who live in big cities and see the speeds of 50+ mphs only on weekend gateways, have the average of 13-14. Going in a stop-n-go traffic most of the time is a result of that - no reason to blame the leadfoot. I make no claims with my previous post. I have gone to 16 from 14, maybe 'cause it is normal operation after 2 years, maybe engine flush did work. I have no complaints either way. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by sgtglok
Most people on this board, who live in big cities and see the speeds of 50+ mphs only on weekend gateways, have the average of 13-14. Going in a stop-n-go traffic most of the time is a result of that - no reason to blame the leadfoot. I make no claims with my previous post. I have gone to 16 from 14, maybe 'cause it is normal operation after 2 years, maybe engine flush did work. I have no complaints either way.
Like anything, you look for a change from normal. That may be gradual but you should be able to tell mileage has dropped from when the vehicle was newer.
And if all your other patterns are the same, but you did one thing and the mileage got better, well no reason to believe that did not help. |
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| RobK |
quote:
Originally posted by HARDROCK
[B]
Was this just a self-generated illusion to justify spending the extra money or did the flush really make a difference? When and under what conditions should the fuel injectors be flushed?
Here's my .02 - I own and operate a repair shop and we sell this type of service also. I can tell you from experience (I stand nothing to gain otherwise) that this really is a benficial service. You will not get the same result as using Techron or another gasoline additive. In my opinion, anyone who tells you it is a "ripoff" really does not understand what this service does.
I'm not sure about the service they performed on your MDX, but at my shop, we use a professional product that comes in three parts. First is an injector cleaner that goes in the gas tank (a'la Techron). Second is an induction cleaner that goes through the intake, and the third is a detergent that goes through the fuel rail.
A byproduct of burning gasoline is carbon. Carbon is an engine's enemy. It gets everywhere. It gets in the intake, on the throttle plate, on the injectors, etc. Carbon will cause problems such as hesitation, rough idle, decreased gas mileage, slow-responding O2 sensors, etc. Techron will clean the injectors (to a limited degree because Techron is sold over-the-counter, it is more diluted than the professional products we use), but it will not remove carbon from the intake, nor will it clean deposits from O2 sensors and the convertor.
I can tell you from firsthand experience (I was a skeptic too at one time) that we have run a comparison on more than one vehicle before and after the process, and the results are amazing. Rough idle disappears. Hesitation disappears. Gas mileage improves. And sometimes we can even restore an O2 sensor to its original performance without replacement.
Just because this is not in your owner's manual does not mean anything. Example: brake fluid flushes have never been in owner's manuals. But now, almost every manufacturer recommends it, because they have realized that it really does serve a purpose and saves the customer (and themselves, in the case of a warranty) money in the long run.
Think of it this way - manufacturers are caught between a rock and a hard place. They want your vehicle to last, but not TOO long, because they want to sell you a new one! Do they really want you driving your MDX for 200,000 miles before buying another vehicle? Of course not, don't be ridiculous. So, just because a "fuel system tune-up" service is not in the manual does not mean it's a ripoff and unnecessary. I recommend it to my customers every 30,000 miles. Trust me it will save you money in the long run. |
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| JeffK |
Interesting post.
Two points:
Today's modern engines run so much cleaner than even 5 years ago. The MDX engine is certified as an ULEV (Ultra low emissions vehicle). "NO scheduled tuneups 105K miles" under normal driving conditions. I just had my yearly inspection done and the amount of emissions emitted did not even register.
My point is that carbon build up in such an engine is practically non-existent.
Second point: Having owned many German cars, they do recommend changing the brake fluid. This is mainly because of contamination by water and possible rust in the brake master cylinder.
I will check the MDX manual and see if they recommend brake fluid changing.
BTW, cleaning fuel injectors is SOP for diesel engines, but not on gasoline engines.
JeffK |
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| RobK |
quote:
Originally posted by JeffK
My point is that carbon build up in such an engine is practically non-existent.
Second point: Having owned many German cars, they do recommend changing the brake fluid. This is mainly because of contamination by water and possible rust in the brake master cylinder.
I will check the MDX manual and see if they recommend brake fluid changing.
BTW, cleaning fuel injectors is SOP for diesel engines, but not on gasoline engines.
JeffK [/B]
I am not an expert on how the MDX accomplishes the "ulev" status, but my guess is that it has highly efficient catalytic converters and EGR systems. The problem is, you say carbon buildup is "practically non-existent" in these vehicles and I would have to disagree, because carbon buildup is a result of burning gasoline and begins to occur in the intake (throttle plate, intake manifold, etc) before the converter is even in the picture. I don't care how "ulev" your vehicle is, if it burns gasoline it creates carbon. If you have over 30,000 miles on your vehicle, try taking the snorkel off the intake/throttle plate area, open the throttle plate with a finger and swipe your finger on the inside. I bet it comes out black.
On the point about brake fluid, we use chemical test strips to test the condition of the fluid. These strips do not test for water/moisture, but test for contamination of the fluid itself. As brake fluid ages, it loses its corrosion inhibitors which is a major reason why hydraulic brake components fail. Granted, water/moisture is also an enemy, but by that time the brake fluid has already been worn out for a very long time. These strips are great because they reveal contaminated fluid long before a moisture test will, and before damage is done. |
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| RobK |
quote:
Originally posted by JeffK
Interesting post.
Two points:
Today's modern engines run so much cleaner than even 5 years ago. The MDX engine is certified as an ULEV (Ultra low emissions vehicle). "NO scheduled tuneups 105K miles" under normal driving conditions. I just had my yearly inspection done and the amount of emissions emitted did not even register.
JeffK
By the way, the fact that the MDX does not require a scheduled tune-up for 105,000 miles has nothing to do with it being a ULEV vehicle. It has to do with the fact that it uses double platinum plugs which last far longer than standard plugs. |
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| JeffK |
Sorry, but I must disagree.
The ULEV rating has nothing to do with either the catalytic converter or the EGR system.
The MDX engine is a state of the art engine designed to meet the strictest emissions regulations, i.e., California for example.
If it were as you suggest, then every manufacturer would install better catalytic converters and better EGR systems to achieve the same result.
This of course has not, and I suggest, cannot be done.
Carbon is a byproduct of incomplete combustion. The cleaner the engine, the less likelihood of carbon buildup.
I am not saying your cleaning is harmful, but rather is not cost efficient.
As to brake fluid, I believe the major contaminate is moisture which causes rust.
JeffK |
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| RobK |
quote:
Originally posted by JeffK
Sorry, but I must disagree.
The ULEV rating has nothing to do with either the catalytic converter or the EGR system.
The MDX engine is a state of the art engine designed to meet the strictest emissions regulations, i.e., California for example.
If it were as you suggest, then every manufacturer would install better catalytic converters and better EGR systems to achieve the same result.
This of course has not, and I suggest, cannot be done.
Carbon is a byproduct of incomplete combustion. The cleaner the engine, the less likelihood of carbon buildup.
I am not saying your cleaning is harmful, but rather is not cost efficient.
As to brake fluid, I believe the major contaminate is moisture which causes rust.
JeffK
JeffK, are you a mechanic or do you just play one on this forum?
Most of the emissions reduction in any vehicle is done in the converters and the EGR. Yes, the MDX and other vehicles do employ various techniques in the intake and injection system to reduce emissions. But most is done in the converters (3 on the MDX) and EGR. Read Acura's own technical specs on its MDX engine and it will tell you the same thing about the converters.
These converters and systems are extremely expensive. Ford is not going to make the Escort ULEV unless it has to, because it costs money, a lot of it. I believe that is the main reason most vehicles are not ULEV - because of the cost and engineering required. The MDX is a highly advanced luxury SUV, and Acura can therefore get more $ for it and use ULEV as a sales pitch. |
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| DaleB |
In my opinion, you are both right in this regard. ULEV ratings are the result of the total system design, engine mechanicals, cats, engine management systems, etc.
With regards to fluid changes, I have always flushed brake fluid every 2 years. Contamination still accumulates, and brake fluid absorbs moisture. I have been a proponent of power steering flushes also, for much the same reasons.
We had a member with high mileage (around 80K) on his vehicle and did a manual cleaning of the intake manifold where he found a fair amount of carbon build up. ULEV or not, carbon build up is still a by-product of combustion, even if it has been reduced considerably compared with older designs.
If you are leasing a vehicle and don't plan a buyback, or plan to trade it in every few years, such meaures will benefit the next owner more than you. Every kind of service or maintneance should be evaluated against what you have to gain by having it performed. That does not mean it does not have benefits just because it is not in the owner's manual. |
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| JeffK |
Dear RobK:
You are getting a little bit testy.
Maybe mechanics do not like to be tested or queried?
Check out the Honda Civic. Inexpensive yes. ULEV yes.
The 3.5 liter MDX engine is a state of the art engine. That is the primary reason for its ULEV rating.
As I said before, what you are doing cannot harm the engine. I just think it is unnecessary and certainly not cost effective.
JeffK |
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| feliz |
Combustion chamber design, valve and spark plug configutation, valve timing, cylinder head temperature etc all play a large part in emmisions as well.
By the way I saw a TL engine torn down with over 100,000 miles (160,000 kms) and the cross-hatching on the cylinder walls looked like new, no evidence of wear. Modern technology/materials has come a long way. Come to think of it I didn't notice any carbon build-up anywhere but I wasn't looking at the time. After reading this thread I wish I had of taken a better look. |
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| RobK |
quote:
Originally posted by JeffK
You are getting a little bit testy.
Maybe mechanics do not like to be tested or queried?
Check out the Honda Civic. Inexpensive yes. ULEV yes.
The 3.5 liter MDX engine is a state of the art engine. That is the primary reason for its ULEV rating.
JeffK
JeffK, I'm basing my claims on experience and information provided by Acura. To say the engine itself, without the converters, is solely responsible for the ULEV status is absurd. Yet, unless I misunderstood, you say the converters and EGR have nothing to do with the ULEV status. Read the following information provided to Edmunds.com from Acura:
Acura also claims this motor allows the MDX to become the first 50-state ultra-low emission (ULEV) SUV, thanks to a special low-thermal mass exhaust system and a three-way catalytic converter that quickly heats up to full effectiveness after a cold start. Not only is the engine green, it's frugal. The EPA rates the MDX at 17 mpg city and 23 mpg highway, but we were only able to coax 16 mpg from our sample vehicle in combined city/highway testing. Owners have reported as high as 24 mpg when cruising at 70 mph on the highway. Premium fuel is required, something to keep in mind if gas prices continue to rise.
Here is a link to a site explaining how ULEV and ZLEV work:
http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_...ine/petrol2.htm
It explains, as I have stated before, that the design of the intake and injection system does play a part in ULEV, but a lot of the work is done in the converter and EGR systems. All of the above systems work together to produce the ULEV certification.
As to whether I like to be tested or queried, I belive a discussion forum like this is really great, but the problem is that some people seem to make certain claims and state things as fact when they may not have the expertise required to do so.
If you could provide me some information from Acura that backs your claim that the engine is solely responsible for the ULEV status, please do so. I don't pretend to know everything (far from it!!) and any info you provide would be beneficial. |
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