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Originally posted by mdxxxx
I liked Pete Rose and his hard nosed aggressive style of play, but I think he crossed the line. If he'd come clean in the beginning, I may consider it, but lying only added insult to injury.

I typically don't like lumping on field accomplishments with off field "issues", (ie LT being the best OLB in the history of the NFL. Just because he was a crackhead off the field, should not stop him from being in the hall of fame... Same with Babe Ruth and Booze, ext...) But this time, I'll make an exception... Sorry Pete...

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Originally posted by socalJD


Wholeheartedly agree with you Mdxxxx . . .

I think precedence has already been set, if MLB will not let Shoeless Joe in the Hall for his minor part in the 'Black Sox scandal', Rose has no case. Jackson was a much better player, but got caught up in a scandal that arguably reformed modern baseball and reduced the death grip that owners had over players. In my mind, Joe Jackson deserves reinstatement/enshrinement before I even consider Rose. Good ol' Charlie Hustle will have to wait his turn . . .

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Originally posted by laborlitigator


Let's not gloss over what Shoeless Joe did. It is far worse to take money to throw a game as opposed to Rose betting on baseball games. Your "minor part" argument falls short for Shoeless Joe because what he did was a sin to the essence of baseball. Rose's actions, at most, were stupid.

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Originally posted by laborlitigator


Let's not gloss over what Shoeless Joe did. It is far worse to take money to throw a game as opposed to Rose betting on baseball games. Your "minor part" argument falls short for Shoeless Joe because what he did was a sin to the essence of baseball. Rose's actions, at most, were stupid.

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Originally posted by socalJD


LL, do your homework - yes, jackson took money, but he did not do anything to directly 'throw' a game in the 1919 WS. I admit it's tough to prove whether a centerfielder can actually influence the outcome of a game, but his actions do not show it - he hit something like .375 and did not committ an error on the field. Most observers were surprised to learn that he was in on the scandal. If he hit .190 and made 2 or 3 errors, you may have a point, but I just don't see it. Jackson made an error in judgment by taking money from gamblers because Commiskey was too tight to pay him, but he did nothing ON the field to deserve a permanent ban . . . BTW, I'm not condoning all the Black Sox who were involved in the scandal, especially the ones that did directly influence games, I'm saying Shoeless Joe deserves to be enshrined before Rose. If you keep Jackson out, keep Rose out as well . . .

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Friday, January 16, 2004

Aaron also angry with Rose for timing of book

Associated Press

ATLANTA -- Hank Aaron is adamant: Pete Rose has no place in the Hall of Fame, or anywhere in baseball.

The all-time home run leader harshly criticized the career hit king for an insincere confession, saying Rose should not be reinstated after admitting he bet on the game.

"During these past few days, I've looked at Pete on television, and he hasn't given any signs of an honest confession," Aaron told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution in an interview published in Friday editions.
"Plus, I've seen absolutely no truth whatsoever in what he's saying," he said.

Aaron, a vice president with the Atlanta Braves, said Rose should be treated like anyone else who gambles on games.

"I just think it's hogwash to say that he should be put back into the game just because the public wants it," Aaron said. "A rule is a rule, and the rule is on every clubhouse door that you can't bet on baseball. It doesn't say that you're excluded if you have 4,000 hits or 700 home runs."

Rose admitted betting on baseball while managing the Cincinnati Reds in the 1980s. He accepted a lifetime ban from the game, which bars him from consideration for the Hall of Fame.

That's the way it should be, according to Aaron.

"What are you going to do about Shoeless Joe Jackson?" he asked, referring to the player who was banned after he and seven teammates were accused of throwing the 1919 World Series. "Ted Williams said many days to me that (Jackson) didn't have anything to do with the scandal. If you let Pete in, you have to deal with that."

Aaron is also skeptical of Rose's claims, considering he is still a recreational gambler who doesn't see the need for professional help.

"It's just like an alcoholic saying that he doesn't drink whiskey anymore, but he still drinks beer," Aaron said. "Pete says that even though he isn't a gambler anymore, he still bets on the horses. That's bad."
In addition, Aaron is perturbed that Rose's book came out just before Paul Molitor and Dennis Eckersley were voted into the Hall of Fame.

"The timing of when he said all of this was very bad," Aaron said. "I'm still quite angry with it."
During Aaron's frequent travels from his Atlanta home to Milwaukee for business purposes, he chats often with commissioner Bug Selig. Aaron doesn't expect Rose to be reinstated anytime soon.
"I know how Bud thinks, so I'm guessing it'll be later," Aaron said.

That said, he never has never discussed the Rose matter with Selig. Aaron would like the commissioner to meet with small groups of Hall of Famers to get their feelings on Rose before making any decision on reinstatement.

"I don't want people to think that, if I go to Bud, he'll gravitate to my opinion," Aaron said.
Aaron is the second Hall of Famer this week to come out against Rose's reinstatement. In an open letter Wednesday, Ferguson Jenkins said, "Knowing what I know now, I will never support your reinstatement to the game or your bid for the Hall."

Jenkins had previously supported Rose's bid for Cooperstown.

"It's so apparent now with the gambling issue, he's kind of lost my vote," Jenkins said.

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. . . "What are you going to do about Shoeless Joe Jackson?" he asked . . . "Ted Williams said many days to me that (Jackson) didn't have anything to do with the scandal. If you let Pete in, you have to deal with that.". . .

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Originally posted by laborlitigator


Let's not gloss over what Shoeless Joe did. It is far worse to take money to throw a game as opposed to Rose betting on baseball games. Your "minor part" argument falls short for Shoeless Joe because what he did was a sin to the essence of baseball. Rose's actions, at most, were stupid.

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Originally posted by mullysalt


Okay LL, let me break this down for you from someone who knows a little somethin' 'bout gambling. If Pete bets on ballgames one day that involves his team and then the next day he doesn't that in essence is a bet against his team. Pete's crimes are far worse than those of "Shoeless" Joe Jackson's. Jackson couldn't read or write and his numbers clearly indicate that he wasn't jaking it in the Series. Rose's crimes against the integrity of baseball are far more profound. In every clubhouse in the land there is a big sign that says "Don't bet on baseball".
Yet, here comes big, bad Pete Rose who has yet to show contrition and even has the audacity to release his book the day before Molly and Eck are announced as this years inductees to the HOF. Rose is a low-life. I just had a great idea! Since you seem to be our resident legal eagle why don't you spearhead Pete's cause and get him back in the game. You two seem like you would make a great pair. Two delusional knuckleheads.

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Originally posted by mullysalt
I didn't know you were so sensitive that being called a delusional knucklehead would cause you such trauma. I apologize. You argument is flawed though, baseball's HOF is more than just what happens on the field. If you crap all over the sanctity of the game and have a stellar career it doesn't mean you should get a free pass to the HOF.
P.S.-You're still a knucklehead but it's part of your charm. Hugs and kisses.

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Originally posted by mullysalt
He is still looking for the killer(s) and after all he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. LL, that had to be quite an eye opening experience(the whole OJ trial) given your profession. I'd love to hear your take on that whole fiasco some time.
As far as Rose goes, he has lost the one thing he had always had in his favor and that is the court of public opinion.
Wasn't Paul Horning reinstated along with Alex Karas? If he was reinstated by his sport, the NFL, then why shouldn't he be in the pro football HOF? It stands to reason although it was before my time that Horning followed whatever guidelines that were set before him to become reinstated.
Rose, however, is still lying and grandstanding others more deserving. His actions in coming out with his book and interview right before Molly and Eck were announced as this years class is yet another example of Rose's very poor sense of judgment. He could have had his cake and eaten it too but he lied for 14 years and when he sees that his fate might go to the veterans committee he realizes that he better do something to get on that ballot before then.
Yes, I said others(meaning Molly and Eck) are more deserving both of these men fought addictions and substance abuse and conquered their demons to go on to have extremely successful HOF careers. Rose let his demons destroy everything he had built for so long and hard on the field. Molitor and Eckersley are to be celebrated, Rose isn't.

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