| srpbep |
If anyone has time to kill, Honda has submitted a response to NHTSA regarding its inquiry into tranny problems. The response is 1046 pages in length. Plenty of reading for the curious. The document seems to be split into two parts:
Part-1: Problem reports and history of case handling. Appears that Honda has spent a considerable amount of time (not necessarily by choice) handling complaints, trade-outs, & buy-backs. Additionally, appears that consumers, Honda, and various BBBs have gotten to know each other in arbitration. Some consumers have even sued directly.
Part-2: A lot of information on the problem, research into the cause, the various vehicles having problems, etc. By the way, appears that the problem is centered around the 3rd gear clutch pak (not new news); however, seems that there are a combination of multiple design issues which include problems with low oil pressure to the 3rd gear clutch pak (low oil flow), problems with oil pressure changes (needed adjustments to reduce thermal loading), problems with the surface of the clutch plates, problems with the filter, and more!!
The focus of the NHTSA inquiry was indeed safety. Appears that Honda has convinced NHTSA (for now) that this is NOT a safety defect (no deaths, only a couple reported injuries). If I read it correctly, NHTSA will continue to monitor the situation -- and there IS A SITUATION!! |
|
|
| srpbep |
In looking at the Honda document, Honda does in fact seem to have tranny problems (again not new). As I read it:
The worst is definately the Acura CL (seems to be 2x that of the TL). All I can figure out is that CL drivers are more aggressive (I could not find an explanation in the document).
The next "segment" actually consists of the following 4 vehicles (all are closely matched in failures!!):
-- Honda Accord V6
-- Acura TL
-- Honda Odyssey
-- Accord 4 Cyl
And in the next segment, our very own MDX!!! |
|
|
| srpbep |
The following was in an internal Honda report dated 09/11/02:
quote:
Overall [Odyssey] claims increasing at a rapid rate
|
|
|
| srpbep |
The following was in an internal Honda report dated 09/13/02:
quote:
Overall [MDX] claims are increasing
|
|
|
| srpbep |
I stumbled upon an interesting chart in the middle of the Honda documents. In this document, Honda was calculating the cost of transmission failures on a "cost per sold unit basis". I hope that everyone will sleep better at night, I know that this will not help me!!
As the owner of an 02 MDX, the article did not enhance my confidence in the vehicle. I did feel better about having recently purchased an extended warranty!!
We own an 01 Accord V6 and an 02 MDX. From what I have just looked at, really makes me wish that I had bought Toyota/Lexus products. We typically keep our vehicles for a number of years, we are going to have to revisit this with our current vehicles (bad trannys are not good for long term owners).
I am forced to think about a recent thread on leasing (the old lease vs. buy discussion). While we own both vehicles, I hate to admit that I find myself wishing that we did not own them, rather had leased them. |
|
|
| TheWorm |
That investigation was closed over a year ago, and has been mentioned (along with CL/TL/MDX numbers & rates) in other tranny related threads.
Why the rehash? |
|
|
| srpbep |
TheWorm,
Ooops ... sorry, should have done a search. I was looking at the site regarding our Accord V6 and stumbled upon the document. Amazing stuff.
Since you seem up on what is going on, how has the MDX tranny saga progressed? Have the number of tranny failures continued to increase as suggested by the Honda documents? |
|
|
| TheWorm |
Based on the posts around here, I don't think there's been a significant increase in tranny problems reported (at least not as they relate to that document and the CL/TL-type 3rd clutch pack problem). Though the vast majority of tranny problems reported here have been *that* issue.
We determined long ago through part numbers that the X tranny is different than the CL/TL, although the design is/was similar. We can also assume that its manufactured by the same group (Honda Transmission Mfg) whose US-operation built most of the bad 3rd clutch packs (surface roughness out of spec, among some secondary design issues like lube rates).
The X numbers in that report were small....something like a couple-dozen X tranny issues reported at the time (Fall 02). Even the "spike" you refer to was something like *5* trannies in a month.
Nonetheless, check this thread for what appears to be a *new* tranny issue (gear breakage): http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/show...&threadid=16813
All that said, I still don't think that CL/TL-type tranny issue is nearly as pervasive and epidemic in the X; certainly not like with the other cars. However, if I had to pick the potential "weakest link" in the entire car, it'd be the transmission. Of the *major* components members have had trouble with, that's the one. |
|
|
| srpbep |
TheWorm,
Thanks for the update ... very interesting.
In looking over the Honda document on the NHTSA site, I noted that Honda spend considerable time and effort looking for the root causes of the CL/TL (as well as other tranny failures). I came away believing that Honda had identified oil [tranny fluid] flow to be a major cause of the problems [in the TL/CL, it was burning up the 3rd gear clutch].
If I read the press release regarding the MDX/Odyssey/Pilot correctly, oil flow [or rather lack thereof] is the common element. In both cases, the lack of oil flow is allowing parts to overheat. I believe that the fix has to do with increasing oil flow which apparently is the root cause. |
|
|
| srpbep |
TheWorm,
In re-reading your post, I noted that you indicated that I referred to a "spike" in failures. I have re-read my post and did not see where I made that indication. I did quote the Honda document in two places as follows:
Quote-1: The following was in an internal Honda report dated 09/11/02:
quote:
Overall [Odyssey] claims increasing at a rapid rate
Quote-2: The following was in an internal Honda report dated 09/13/02:
quote:
Overall [MDX] claims are increasing
|
|
|
| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by srpbep
TheWorm,
In re-reading your post, I noted that you indicated that I referred to a "spike" in failures.
Maybe the real "spike" is in the number of new threads that blossom as soon as there is new information on tranmission failures. :D |
|
|
| Warzau |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Maybe the real "spike" is in the number of new threads that blossom as soon as there is new information on tranmission failures. :D
LOL:2: |
|
|
| TheWorm |
I wasn't attributing the word "spike" to you, but rather addressing the increase in one of the charts. Are you referring to p772? Claims went from 0 or 1 per month to 5 in a single month (no data provided for after that month).
IIRC, the report indicated that the primary factor in 3rd clutch failures was due to excessive surface roughness, primarily in US-made trannies...the debris caused the strainers to clog which caused lack of lube.
A secondary component was repeated 2-3 and 3-2 shifts causing increased heat and lack of heat dissipation.
The doc is a bit difficult to follow since it isn't really in chronological order but rather a compendium of internal documents. But my read was that the solution was a combination of resurfacing the 3rd clutch so it isn't as rough, increasing fluid flow "just in case", and reprogramming the ECU to deal with 2-3 and 3-2 shifts along with the hydraulic pressure for lube in general.
Bottom line (my read) was that the primary issue was surface roughness on the clutch plate and the increased flow solutions were to mitigate damage from manufacturing "variables" or "defects" (pick one) on the 3rd clutch.
p673 has a good summary of the mfg and lube issues. p687 indicates the primary and secondary/contributing factors. p746 also has a causal diagram.
Summary failures of actual trannies starts on p904.
However, there is a single page buried in there someplace with the (unanswered) question of "is this a general 5AT issue?" meaning, to me, a confluence of design and manufacture issues and not a single smoking gun.
Again, I don't think this is the same issue as the recent recall (gear issue) as the previously failed trannies (3rd clutch burn) didn't show signs of gear breakage.
YMMV. |
|
|
| TheWorm |
| BTW, here is the rate of tranny failures by model: |
|
|
| msu79gt82 |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Maybe the real "spike" is in the number of new threads that blossom as soon as there is new information on tranmission failures. :D
Add to that the number of thread "spikes" when the price of gas goes up :rolleyes: |
|
|
| srpbep |
TheWorm,
Guess we'll need to agree to disagree. My reading of the MDX [and Ody and Pilot] 5AT recall is NOT a gear issue. Rather I read it as a heat issue resulting from insufficient oil flow. The insufficient flow [root cause] causes a gear to overheat. I base this on the following from the Honda release:
"The situation is created by insufficient lubrication of the transmission's secondary sharft second gear .... can lead to heat build-up .... may eventually result in chipped or broken gear teeth or breakage of the gear .... a modifiction to increase the flow of transmission fluid to the affected gear ... If during the inspection, the service technician discovers discoloration of the gear indicating heat damage ....". |
|
|
| TheWorm |
quote:
Originally posted by srpbep
TheWorm,
Guess we'll need to agree to disagree. My reading of the MDX [and Ody and Pilot] 5AT recall is NOT a gear issue. Rather I read it as a heat issue resulting from insufficient oil flow. The insufficient flow [root cause] causes a gear to overheat.
No need to agree to disagree. I *agree* the recall is a heat issue w/a root cause of insufficient lubrication/cooling.
I was just noting that IMO the recall is *different* than the "CL/TL type" tranny issues reported here and in that NHTSA document (where the third clutch pack finish/manufacture is IMO the root cause, and lube/heating is secondary.
The recall = excessive heat -> gear breakage -> car comes to a screeching halt.
NHTSA investigation (CL/TL-type failure) = 3rd clutch -> debris -> passage clog -> heat -> more wear -> lather, rinse, repeat -> tranny dies. No gear breakage noted in those instances.
What I'm saying is that despite this recall, owners probably should still expect tranny failures at the same rate as they have occured in the past, given the 3rd clutch pack design and potential for failure.
My guess is that this one's a recall b/c it can cause total lockup of the tranny/drivetrain, leading to loss of control of the car. |
|
|
| strife63 |
| Where can I get a copy of this report? |
|
|
| TheWorm |
quote:
Originally posted by strife63
Where can I get a copy of this report?
On the NHTSA site under the defect investigations area. Search for 01 Acura TL when you're there. There are 2 documents, and the bigger one is the one we're talking about. |
|
|
|
