| sandbag |
Hi. Just wondering if anybody has ideas about what is wrong with my 2001 MDX. I just took it to the dealer, and I had 4 guys standing around the car scratching their heads and saying they'd never seen anything like it!
Symptoms:
1) check engine, and VTM4 light are on on the dashboard
2) when at a stoplight those lights pulse slowly. they dim every two seconds or so.
3) when not moving, and the steering wheel is turned to one side, it also pulses and pulls back toward center (gently, but noticable)
4) when starting to accelerate, the car jumps forward and then moves normally. when switching to the next gear the lurching is also noticable.
5) when moving, then letting off the gas, the car seems to slow down more quickly than normal, like there is some drag on the transmission
6) i think i even heard the cd player slow down with the pulses (this one could have been my imagination)
Thanks, any ideas? |
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| SuperTech |
Didn't they scan for codes if the check engine light is on? Usually when the VTM light is one with the check engine, it's either and emission control device or the ttransmission that sets a code in the VTM for "powertrain failure." My first guess based on your symtoms would be a transmission shift solenoid cycling on and off when it should be doing nothing. I've seen all the dash lights dim for a moment at each shift while running a car through the gears while in the air.
Question...does the RPM change with this "pulsing" you're experiencing?
The cd player slowing down, I'm going to have to dismiss unles you can absolutely say you know for sure. The steering wheel wanting to come back on it's own is just strange. I can't honestly think of how that would relate to the lights dimming unless you tell me the RPM fluctuates also.
Another question...is the ABS light on? It could also be the solenoids in the ABS modulator activating when they shouldn't be. That could cause the lights to dim, the dragging on decel. and lurching you feel on accel. |
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| MDX_BLM |
| Almost sounds like some sort of short. Hate to see what the hourly rate is to have four head scratchers on the clock. |
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| sandbag |
Thank you, SuperTech. Yes, the rpm is pulsing also. It seems to be idling a little lower than usual, and when it pulses it goes even lower.
The ABS light is not on.
The head scratchers only looked at it for a few minutes. I left the vehicle and they're going to do the diagnostic on it tomorrow morning. |
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| ardvarkus |
Alternator/voltage regulator issue? Could exacerbate with low RPM..charge-discharge-charge...
not sure that would explain the fault codes, but at low voltage the spurious signals might do it.
Does turning on the AC make it worse? Idle air control?
just a WAG
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| sandbag |
Here's what the dealer said needs repair:
1) o switch, pressure switch in transmission - $180
2) throttle body and gasket - $485
3) egr valve - emission control - $245
4) motor mount - $360
I've done some offroad camping, driving 30 miles on a dirt road in Mexico... but a broken motor mount?! The repair guy says he's seen that a couple times before on an MDX.
Just wondering what you guys think of the first three items above. |
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| Fabvsix |
They were scratching their heads as trying to figure out how to screw you !
1,2,3 I beleive has recalls or TSB's ! Check this site for those.....
EGR value and Motor mounts I think have a recall or TSB on them. Ask your dealership for a "goodwill" coverage one time only.
How many miles do you have ? How good is your record of bringing your X in for service as this is key.......Going to Joe's auto shop does you NO good under these circumstances...
Keep up posted ! |
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| Fabvsix |
| btw: first time I read or hear about a "pressure switch" in transmission. That I would argue with ! |
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| JL_SS |
| I would ask how they know all of those things need to be replaced. Did they all throw codes or are they guessing? If they are guessing then they should start replacing those items one by one to see if it solves the problem. Either way, definately ask for "Goodwill" replacement. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by sandbag
Here's what the dealer said needs repair:
1) o switch, pressure switch in transmission - $180
2) throttle body and gasket - $485
3) egr valve - emission control - $245
4) motor mount - $360
I've done some offroad camping, driving 30 miles on a dirt road in Mexico... but a broken motor mount?! The repair guy says he's seen that a couple times before on an MDX.
Just wondering what you guys think of the first three items above.
Are you out of warranty?
The EGR is warrantied for 80k now. There's a nice heated thread on that elsewhere.
The throttle body is a known problem that causes rough running and surges. There is a TSB for the throttle body, but it's not a warranty extension.
I've seen plenty of motor mounts go bad on MDXs. After about 40k miles, they start going bad. But this is not the cause of the lights dimming and "pulsing" you describe. It's just something else they found while they were looking around.
A pressure switch sending bogus readings to the computer might cause your symptoms. I've replaced those in the past for leaks though.
It's either the transmission switch or the throttle body causing your problems. More specifically on the throttle...the Idle Air Control is messed up. That's what maintains a proper, smooth idle. I've never seen one so bad that the idle surges so low that the lights dim and the power steering pump partially loses it's assist like your'e having...but there's a first for everything. |
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| Fabvsix |
| And ALWAYS room for a FIRST time GOODWILL WARRANTY uh ? :rolleyes: |
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| frostyra |
quote:
Originally posted by SuperTech
More specifically on the throttle...the Idle Air Control is messed up. That's what maintains a proper, smooth idle. I've never seen one so bad that the idle surges so low that the lights dim and the power steering pump partially loses it's assist like your'e having...but there's a first for everything.
What if there's a loose or cracked vacuum line somewhere, in addition to a bad IAC? I can see that combo causing some wild surges -- maybe. |
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| sandbag |
What a wealth of knowledge you guys are!
My MDX is 2001, and has 84k miles on it. Well out of warranty. I mentioned the EGR having extended warranty, the guy knew nothing about it. Calls me back and says they won't cover it because I'm 4k over in miles. (Actually, he said in California the warranty is 7/70000, but whatever.) I was very nice to them, pointed out that I bought my car from them, and have always taken it to them for service. Hoped the magic words 'goodwill' would at least get the EGR covered, but they said NO!
(They did cover labor on a power steering problem a year ago, but I paid for parts. Other than that incident I've paid them for everything else, and it hasn't been cheap.)
So, tomorrow I will call Acura customer service and see what they say. Any other magic words to use?
If I get denied from Acura, too, then would you recommend that I go to a non-dealer to do the repairs?
Question about TSB. Technical service bulletins. How does an problem get to be a TSB? And, if it's not a recall or extension, can I use the knowlege that there is a TSB on a particular problem as leverage with Acura? |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by sandbag
(Actually, he said in California the warranty is 7/70000, but whatever.)
If I get denied from Acura, too, then would you recommend that I go to a non-dealer to do the repairs?
Question about TSB. Technical service bulletins. How does an problem get to be a TSB? And, if it's not a recall or extension, can I use the knowlege that there is a TSB on a particular problem as leverage with Acura?
Yup, in CA, it's a state law to have certain emission control devices covered to 7/70. Unfortunately, you're beyond that...and even beyond the 8/80 of the extension specifically covering the EGR valve.
Since you have had a lot of work done with them and bought the car there, I would expect them to at least do the split again where you pay for labor only and they eat the parts. They'll have to call the district manager to get a "goodwill" approval. If they just flat out deny you, then you really owe them no loyalty. Feel free to try an independant shop. Although an independant will want to charge you to do their own diagnosis on it. Most shops tend not to just take another shop's word for it on a diagnosis. Or if they do just proceed to do the work you tell them that the dealer told you to do...they won't guarantee their work since they never got a chance to diagnose it.
A TSB becomes what it is when what's called a "pattern failure" develops. When the company sees an unusal amount of warranty claims for a certain part, the model engineers investigate, and come up with a solution. Be it an updated part (like the OPDS unit)...or a band aid fix (like the spring silencer tubes for '01 front springs). In certain cases where emissions or safety systems are involved, the TSB will also involve a warranty extension (like the EGR valve) or a recall campaign (like the transmission inspection/oil jet kit).
quote:
Originally posted by frostyra
What if there's a loose or cracked vacuum line somewhere, in addition to a bad IAC? I can see that combo causing some wild surges -- maybe.
Of course a vacuum leak will cause a surge. But I've done quite a few throttle bodies on MDXs, a handful of transmission switches, but I've never had a drivabilty problem traced to a vacuum hose. The MDX just isn't old enough. If it were a 1st gen. Legend or Integra...this would be something to check for sure. So maybe you're thinking "well what if a rat got under the hood and started chewing things?" The only things those furry buggers like to munch is the A/C compressor clutch wire or the wire that goes under the plenum to the knock sensor (an expensive job to replace a $5 wire harness). |
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| ardvarkus |
Yeah, exactly what I thought- motor mount.
HA HA
I had two motor mounts go bad- they were replaced under warranty. I found them, not the dealer.
What is your current financial exposure as of now? Specifically what dollar amount have you authorized to date? If it is $100, and they refuse to help with the repair cost, tell them you will take it elsewhere.
This we pay parts you pay labor is quite the scam for the dealer, no? Acura gives them the parts, and then the dealer socks you with full retail book time. (Like $110 an hour and not the $65 an hour Acura pays - just a WAG at numbers, but acura doesnt pay 110) (Supertech- is this how the labor works?)
Oh well.
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by ardvarkus
This we pay parts you pay labor is quite the scam for the dealer, no? Acura gives them the parts, and then the dealer socks you with full retail book time. (Like $110 an hour and not the $65 an hour Acura pays - just a WAG at numbers, but acura doesnt pay 110) (Supertech- is this how the labor works?)
Sometimes, the "split" where the customer pays the labor only...the dealer eats it out of goodwill. And sometimes, they can have the part warrantied so they get reimbursted.
Actually, American Honda and the Acura Care extended warranty pays us our full shop rate. But they are strict on how much time they'll give us. If an excessive amount of time was spent diagnosing a problem, the dealer will have to eat it, unless the district manager authorizes all the time...and that would only be for the factory warranty For example...a transmission complaint of slipping. But it only acts up after the car has been driven for quite some time. Suppose it takes me 2.5 hours to drive it around, scan and record the codes, and order the transmission. For a transmission R&R, they'll only pay us for about 7 hours. So I've already used up 2.5 just confirming the thing needed to replaced. Not many techs in the entire country can do the R&R on an MDX in 4.5 hours...so we'd wind up going over time on that job which effectively averages the labor rate we're getting down. |
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| ardvarkus |
quote:
Originally posted by SuperTech
Sometimes, the "split" where the customer pays the labor only...the dealer eats it out of goodwill. And sometimes, they can have the part warrantied so they get reimbursted.
Actually, American Honda and the Acura Care extended warranty pays us our full shop rate. But they are strict on how much time they'll give us. If an excessive amount of time was spent diagnosing a problem, the dealer will have to eat it, unless the district manager authorizes all the time...and that would only be for the factory warranty For example...a transmission complaint of slipping. But it only acts up after the car has been driven for quite some time. Suppose it takes me 2.5 hours to drive it around, scan and record the codes, and order the transmission. For a transmission R&R, they'll only pay us for about 7 hours. So I've already used up 2.5 just confirming the thing needed to replaced. Not many techs in the entire country can do the R&R on an MDX in 4.5 hours...so we'd wind up going over time on that job which effectively averages the labor rate we're getting down.
Thanks- good info to know. (Ford used to work it differently in the early 90s)
is the time allowance for warranty work the same as the 'book time' they charge retail customers?
ie for the tranny example I'd be charged 7 hours if I paid the same as 7 hours if warranty paid?
Thanks!
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by ardvarkus
is the time allowance for warranty work the same as the 'book time' they charge retail customers?
ie for the tranny example I'd be charged 7 hours if I paid the same as 7 hours if warranty paid?
If you brought the vehicle in with a problem and you were out of warranty, you'd have to pay for a diagnostic first. Shops usually want at least an hour's worth authorized up front. They'll call and ask for you to authorize more time if the diagnosis process is elaborate (such as tracking down the cause of an EVAP code). Once the problem is determined, you'll then have to authorize the full parts and labor by the book time for whatever repair needs to be done.
So the example I gave...you'd have to have for 2.5 hrs diagnosis time, then another 7 to replace the transmission. Last MDX we did that was on a customer's nickel I believe we got a little over 9 hours labor paid for.
This is why we get killed on warranty work sometimes. If it takes me 5 hours of taking parts off the car, road testing, taking more parts off, road testing, etc. to find a rattle somewhere...we won't be paid anywhere near the time we put into it. They'll give us maybe an hour for diagnosis plus the .3 to replace the one part that's causing the noise.
And you're right. Certain companies still do it the way you're thinking. The shop's rate will be, say $100/hr. But corporate only pays them the national average of $70something and hour. Not only that...but many companies use two different book times. GM loves doing this. If says a "book time" of 4.0 hours for a timing belt or whatever for a customer pay job...if it's under warranty, the General will only give the dealer 3.2 hours of time to do it. Less money and less time to do it. Warranty work sucks! This could be why things like a 30k service are more at the dealer than they are at Joe Blow's indepandant shop. Maybe they're making up for what they're losing on warranty jobs? |
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| ardvarkus |
quote:
Originally posted by SuperTech
Maybe they're making up for what they're losing on warranty jobs?
I'm in health care...
That's what hospitals do to make up for all the medicare/medi -Cal patients...
Excellent info- thanks
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| sandbag |
Update. I called Acura customer service and mentioned the EGR extended warranty that I just missed by 2500 miles. She called the dealer, and it just so happened that the District Supervisor was there (or maybe on the phone with them) and he approved it instantly. Timing is everything! (If I had not called when I did, I have the feeling the dealer would have denied me, but since the district supervisor was there they had to make themselves look good.)
So, I still have a hefty repair bill, but at least now it feels like a fair deal.
---- off topic:
Ardvarkus, I've had to deal with a medical bill lately. Went to emergency room on a sunday to get 8 stitches in the leg (mountain bike accident). The bills were $1600!! I was there for less than an hour. I'm wondering if there are different prices for if you have insurance and if you don't? I told them I had no insurance. I need to become a doctor who does auto repair on the side! :runaway: |
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| ardvarkus |
quote:
Originally posted by sandbag
---- off topic:
Ardvarkus, I've had to deal with a medical bill lately. Went to emergency room on a sunday to get 8 stitches in the leg (mountain bike accident). The bills were $1600!! I was there for less than an hour. I'm wondering if there are different prices for if you have insurance and if you don't? I told them I had no insurance. I need to become a doctor who does auto repair on the side! :runaway:
Definitely!
If you pay them $1600 then the PPO plans that pay $258 for the same vist are subsidized.
You should have written "billing not to exceed most favorable Insurance rate" when they asked you to sign. I find most 'functionaries' will not question stuff you add to such a contract (I suppose their thinking is "well, they signed it")... with that language you can then cut a deal for a more favorable rate.
You need to find out what the various codes were for the treatemnt received then search to see what the government (medicare) allows for those items- try to get them to cut it down to that.
These days, (just like my car repairs), anything less than 12 stitches I just do myself.
:)
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| bad news |
| Just my 2 cents on the motor mounts. 35 years ago I had a Ford (please cut me some slack on that one). When I was stopped and stepped on the gas and making a left turn, the gas pedal went to the floor. I'd hit the brakes and the pedal would release. It didn't happen when I was turning right I talked to a number of shops until one guy diagnosed it over the phone and he was right. Apparently what was happening is that I was stepping on the gas harder when I turned left than I was when I was turning right. When I did it I was stepping on the gas just hard enough that the torque raised the engine off the busted motor mount stretching out the throttle linkage causing the pedal to the floor and giving the engine more gas. The cycle continued until I hit the brakes. It was bizzare but true. |
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| ardvarkus |
quote:
Originally posted by sandbag
I need to become a doctor who does auto repair on the side! :runaway:
Off Topic:
Dr. is getting ready for work one morning- wife tells him "Honey, the sink is clogged". He tells her, "Call a plumber".
She insists that he deal with the plumber, so he calls and tells the plumber he is late for surgery and can he come over immediately. Plumber agrees.
15 minutes later the plumber pulls up, and diagnoses the problem, fixes it in 10 minutes. Presents the doctor with a bill for $426.
Doctor say, “Holy crap, I’m a neurosurgeon and I don’t even make that kind of money for 10 minutes work.”
Plumber replies, “Hey- neither did I when I was a neurosurgeon”. |
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| frostyra |
quote:
Originally posted by bad news
Just my 2 cents on the motor mounts. 35 years ago I had a Ford (please cut me some slack on that one). When I was stopped and stepped on the gas and making a left turn, the gas pedal went to the floor. I'd hit the brakes and the pedal would release. It didn't happen when I was turning right I talked to a number of shops until one guy diagnosed it over the phone and he was right. Apparently what was happening is that I was stepping on the gas harder when I turned left than I was when I was turning right. When I did it I was stepping on the gas just hard enough that the torque raised the engine off the busted motor mount stretching out the throttle linkage causing the pedal to the floor and giving the engine more gas. The cycle continued until I hit the brakes. It was bizzare but true.
Ah, memories! I had a '63 Studebaker Lark sedan, 259V8, 3 on the tree with B/W overdrive. You knew it was an engine mount failure when you started out from a dead stop, the gas pedal pulled all the way down to the floor, and the clutch pedal popped all the way up. Talk about uncontrolled acceleration! |
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