| mdx99 |
I got some questions for the mechanical minds out there!
With rate of gas going up to the moon, I am thinking about getting either a Toyota Prius or Scion tc for my daughter, a new driver in my family. However, I have doubt about the reliability of hybrid since the real life history of hybrid is only a few year old and no real track record can be proved till... The few things that can go wrong in a hybrid could be the battery or the switch that shuttles between gas & electricity.
e.g. I am commuting with one of those bi-fuel (natural gas) Chevy (state owned vehicle) daily. The very first day, I picked up the car from San Diego, filled up with natural gas ($5 for full tank) , it lasted about 80 miles and supposed to switch back to gasoline, instead, it stopped in the middle of fwy 5 at peak rush hour, pushed to the side of the freeway, played around with the ignition for about half an hour, it managed to start again and had a safe but scarely journey to LA. That is the end of the bi-fuel technology for me, from there on, I never fill that dam... car with natural gas again, so are most of my co-workers, I also learned that the gas switch had been replaced by GM twice already. Now with the additional weight of the gas tank and other stuffs, it will have worse mealage than its counterpart that runs only on gasoline.
So what I am worry is that the hybrid may look good in the first few years till all the problem appears in the latter years and I would end up with a piece of ****.... like the bi-fuel car I am driving. When they said, " the government ends up getting all the junk" that's a true statement!
Appreciate any comment from the Mechanical minds !! |
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| eurohazard |
Mechanically speaking a hybrid will prove to be more troublesome than a comparable regular car. But how much so, and enough to offset the fuel saving? It's anyone's guess.
My personal belief is right now, with the premium payed for a hybrid, it's not worth buying a hybrid. |
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| devil421 |
| I drive first and second gen Prius'es (sp?) very often for work purposes. It's obviously still a new technology so always keep that in mind. Having said that, there are many issues with the first gens. The second gens are a redesign so the previous issues have been resolved. One big thing I don't like is that they are basically owner unservicable (for your own personal safety!) so itll suck if you like to do your own service. Overall, the newer ones are nice cars with about $50K worth of technology for about half the cost.... |
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| SuperTech |
Hybrid vehicles in terms of cost effectiveness are probably not worth it. OK...you'll save on gas. This is obvious. But you'll pay quite a premium to have a hybrid vehicle over a conventional gasoline vehcile. Compare the sticker price of a typically optioned Prius vs. a Corolla. There's at least $5k more in the hybrid. Eventually the total costs of ownership between the two will eventually move in favor of the hybrid. I'm not going to try the math, but it's probably safe to say that you would have to drive the hybrid for well past 100k miles for the crossing point to be reached. And either car is probably going to be pretty tired and ready to retire at that point.
This comparison has been done before with 3/4 ton trucks. Diesel engines can show a better return in miles per gallon than their gasoline counterparts. Problem is, the turbodiesel option is anywhere from $5-7k over the gas engine. I think someone did the math and they figured you'd have to drive the diesel over 200k miles in order for it to start being "worth it." Of course diesels have other advantages when we're talking about trucks, but just for the sake of better mileage...it's not worth it.
Honda now has a hybrid version of the Accord V6. So it's not the gutless four banger that dwells under the hoods of the Prius, Insight, and Civic hybrid. The Accord is a car that won't feel like a car that's saving gas. And in comparison to a Prius...it won't. But it does get better mileage than just a conventional V6 Accord.
Buy a hybrid if you genuinely want to hug a tree and care about the environment by conseeving our natural resources. Doubt this is a high priority here on a site dedicated to a somewhat large SUV. Or buy the hybrid because you are a gadget hound and just want another neat display on the dash and want to use it like a competition to see just how high you can make the MPG number go. But don't buy it because you think it's going to save you money. |
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| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by devil421
I drive first and second gen Prius'es (sp?) very often for work purposes. It's obviously still a new technology so always keep that in mind. Having said that, there are many issues with the first gens. The second gens are a redesign so the previous issues have been resolved. One big thing I don't like is that they are basically owner unservicable (for your own personal safety!) so itll suck if you like to do your own service. Overall, the newer ones are nice cars with about $50K worth of technology for about half the cost....
Did you ever have problems with the switch or can you list some of the common problems of a hybrid that you drove? I hate to end up buying a car that had transmission problem like the MDX and Acura is not backing it up with longer warranty! No more MDX for me even though I like the car.
Thanks. |
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| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by SuperTech
Honda now has a hybrid version of the Accord V6. So it's not the gutless four banger that dwells under the hoods of the Prius, Insight, and Civic hybrid. The Accord is a car that won't feel like a car that's saving gas. And in comparison to a Prius...it won't. But it does get better mileage than just a conventional V6 Accord.
Buy a hybrid if you genuinely want to hug a tree and care about the environment by conseeving our natural resources. Doubt this is a high priority here on a site dedicated to a somewhat large SUV. Or buy the hybrid because you are a gadget hound and just want another neat display on the dash and want to use it like a competition to see just how high you can make the MPG number go. But don't buy it because you think it's going to save you money.
Since our government is not doing anything on this oil/gas gauging, I rather give my money to the hybrid car manufacturer rather than the oil cos. and ultimately those kings in the Middle East. I am doing it not just to save money but rather, being an engineer, I like new technology and the idea of going 40mpg on a decent car. I will take a look at the Honda Accord hybrid as well.
BTW, is that accord going to have the same transmission as the MDX??
Thanks for the reply. |
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| ScoobyT |
The big question for me is whats going to happen AFTER the batteries in those hybrids begin to die. Do they get replaced by manufacturer or does the owner eat the $3000-$5000 cost plus recycling?
@ mdx99
Scion TC is NOT a hybrid. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by mdx99
BTW, is that accord going to have the same transmission as the MDX??
I can't be sure...but I would think that it uses a modified version of the TL's 5-speed. The non hybrid V6 Accord uses the TL's 5-speed. So since the hybrid uses a modified version of the conventional 3.0L engine, one would think that the transmission is too different either.
And the main battery is not 3-5 grand. More lke $1500-3000. |
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| devil421 |
| We have about 10 of them in the fleet (8 first gens and 2 second gens). 3 of the first gens all have steering issues (bad pumps). A different Prius often discharges its own batteries for some reason and ends up dead in the morning. Just stuff like that. Way too many problems. The second gens have been good though! |
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| Blackura |
I traded my MDX for a Lexus RX400h hybrid. So far, no issues, no problems, and 60% better gas mileage (on regular gas). For me it was an excellent move. And I loved my MDX.
As to "making your money back" in gas savings everybody's calcluations seem to assume the hybrid option will return zero on trade-in. Obviously that's not the case. In the case of the Prius, used ones hve been selling for more than new, so there's *appreciation* rather than depreciation.
Don't forget the $2000 tax deduction you get, and all the other options that are included in the price as well. A friend has a gen2 Prius and loves it. No issues there. This technology has been around for years in Japan and the bugs have been worked out for the most part. |
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| Dr. Ken |
| I was somewhat enthused about an MDX hybrid in the future, but after reading the article on battery replacement, accident hazards, economics, etc, I can say that I have totally lost it. (my enthusiasm, that is).:o |
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| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by ScoobyT
The big question for me is whats going to happen AFTER the batteries in those hybrids begin to die. Do they get replaced by manufacturer or does the owner eat the $3000-$5000 cost plus recycling?
@ mdx99
Scion TC is NOT a hybrid.
I know, Scion tc is my alternative to Prius.
After reading all these posts, my interests on Hybrids are decreasing fast!!! I forgot about that $5000 replacement of batteries 4-5 years down the road. |
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| eurohazard |
| The Scion tC is a great little car. I drove one, and was pretty impressed. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by eurohazard
The Scion tC is a great little car. I drove one, and was pretty impressed.
I like the looks of that little thing. And the price is pretty cheap too. If I was ever to get a FWD econobox type car...that would be on the short list. |
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| ROTORRAY |
| General consensus is that because of the premium price you have to pay for the hybrid, plus the eventual cost of battery replacement, buying one is financially not worth it unless you plan to keep the vehicle for many, many years. If you want to feel good about using less gas and saving the environment, go for it. If it's for money you are wasting your time. |
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| mdxmd |
If you trade in a perfectly good car to get a hybrid, the amount of pollution caused by the manufacture of the hybrid vehicle is MORE than the decrease in pollution from your using less gass over the life of the car. That's what I read somewhere on the internet a while back. I have no idea if it's true or not.
We looked at an RX400H when we were shopping for an SUV last month. It was about a $8K premium over a similarly equipped RX330 and it would have taken us at least 10 years in that car to make up the price difference in gas savings compared to an RX330. In the end, the lack of a third row made it not a viable option for us.
We ended up with a 2005 MDX Touring Nav/RES with side steps for $38,600 plus TTL instead of $54,000 plus TTL for the RX400H. I'm not sure how many DECADES it would take to make up that price savings by the difference in fuel economy. With the current models and prices, a hybid was not for us.
On the other hand, my sister and her husband bought a Honda Accord Hybrid the same weekend we got our MDX. They love it so far and it is the highest performance Accord, which is the main reason they got it. It adds the horsepower of the electric motors to the V6 engine of the nonhybrid Accord. As are as reliability, I will keep an eye on what happens to my sister's car. She got about 210K miles out of her last Accord with good reliability. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by ROTORRAY
General consensus is that because of the premium price you have to pay for the hybrid, plus the eventual cost of battery replacement, buying one is financially not worth it unless you plan to keep the vehicle for many, many years. If you want to feel good about using less gas and saving the environment, go for it. If it's for money you are wasting your time.
Hey...that's what I said!
My personal opinion on hybrids....it's a quick fix for the automakers. They just merged together two forms of power that have already been around for years. Sure, they had to spend some money to R&D how to do it...but let's face it...they didn't exactly reinvent the wheel here. The manufacturers are catering to the market. A market that's now realizing how bad it hurts to see close to $3.00 a gallon for gas. They sell you on how much better gas mileage you get, but forget mention the addtional expense of buying the hybrid in the first place. But the consumer just gets tunnel vision and focuses on the savings at the pump at not the loss when writing the check at the dealership. And it still does rely on an internal combustion engine. So we aren't using up our oil reserves as fast...but it's really just delaying the inevitable isn't it? Eventually, gasoline engines have to be gone. Personally, I think the future of powertrains will be in the form of a fuel cell. Some manufacturers are testing this, but nothing really available to the public yet. A fuel cell powered powertrain is totally clean, uses no gas whatsoever, but instead uses a resource we have a great abundance of...hydrogen. |
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| BLEXV6 |
| The only reason I would buy a Hybrid, is the Accord or Civic, the former due to the increased horsepower and the latter for great gas mileage, however I suggest that the extra cost is not worth it until gas prices get more out of hand. The Prius, IMHO, is fugly and not worth buying for that reason alone. I think the answer is diesel until the fuel cell is properly developed, but I hate these engines too. In short, I will stay with the gas engine until the oil companies rape us to death with the gas prices, then I will look at these alternatives. |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by BLEXV6
The only reason I would buy a Hybrid, is the Accord or Civic, the former due to the increased horsepower and the latter for great gas mileage, however I suggest that the extra cost is not worth it until gas prices get more out of hand. The Prius, IMHO, is fugly and not worth buying for that reason alone. I think the answer is diesel until the fuel cell is properly developed, but I hate these engines too. In short, I will stay with the gas engine until the oil companies rape us to death with the gas prices, then I will look at these alternatives.
A hybrid Accord gets an average of 8 more miles to the gallon than a regular V6 at a cost of 5K more for the equivalent equipment. It's going to take a long long long time or a much much larger increase in gas prices to make that initial cost back. The IMA adds 15 hp and 20 ft-lbs which would not really be noticeable if you are driving in a manner to achieve superb mpg. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by JL_SS
The IMA adds 15 hp and 20 ft-lbs which would not really be noticeable if you are driving in a manner to achieve superb mpg.
An electric motor has no power "curve" as a gasoline engine does. 100% torque is available from 0-whatever it goes up to RPM. I would think that the Accord hybrid with full electric assist probably has a pretty brisk pull even off of idle. If I were any more curious about this...I could just go drive one and see for myself I suppose.
But an Accord hybrid with Navi is what...$32k? That's just a couple thousand away from a TL. A much better looking and better all around car. Just no hybrid engine. |
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| wmquan |
How long do the hybrid batteries last? And does the warranty cover the replacement?
Toyota's site says:
quote:
Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Prius' hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet for details.
Does that mean the batteries are supposed to last 100k miles or they will replace it under warranty? |
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| JTM |
At this end of last month, my wife and I almost purchased an Accord Hybrid with Navi. It is a great car after doing the test drive and the dealer gave us an unbelievable deal, but toward the end, we decided not to get it for the following reasons:
1. To save the vehicle weight, there is NO sunroof on the hybrid.
2. If battery (IMA) gives you trouble after 8yr/80K, the costs to fixing it is un-predictable at this time. By replacing the battery pack itself, it costs $2500 + labor.
3. The big plus for us to get the hybrid is that we could drive it on HOV even if only one person in the car, but this is most likely to be face out by June 30, 2006.
4. Our are not in hurry to get a new car. :p |
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| Blackura |
I'm a bit surprised at how negative so many people here are on hybrids. It's fascinating and brilliant technology that saves lots of gas and in many cases improves performance at the same time.
Sure, there is an initial cost, but you get that back (and more) when you sell, so it's not really much of a "cost." At this point, it's more like an investment since it actually APPRECIATES, unlike any other option you pay for on a car. At some point, when hybrids are more common, that appreciation will likely turn into minor depreciation but not anywhere near degree that all other options do (typically 70-95% depreciation on options).
Note that Priuses have been running far in excess of 100,000 miles with no battery problems (no expense) at all.
If you were to read acuramdx.org at length and see the multitude of problems listed here you never would have bought an MDX in the first place, would you? Yet we all know that the MDX overall is a fantastic vehicle and probably 99% of us here are actually quite happy with the X. The same goes for hybrids. Sure, you'll read about the 0.0001% of problems at length, but they're actually great.
What can I say... if you don't like hybrids, don't buy one. There will be one less person on the waiting lists. |
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| wmquan |
quote:
Originally posted by Blackura
I'm a bit surprised at how negative so many people here are on hybrids. It's fascinating and brilliant technology that saves lots of gas and in many cases improves performance at the same time.
Are there any good FAQ's on hybrids? I'd like to learn more about them. I hear anecdotal comments like "oh, you're gonna pay through the nose to replace the battery" or "in an accident, you're going to get electrocuted." But I figure that the truth lays beyond and people just need more information on the newer models before making judgements.
E.g. from what you indicated and what the Toyota warranty seems to imply is that you won't have to pay for changing batteries until they have issues after 100k miles. Most of us can live with that, since many of us don't keep a car to 100k miles.
The fact that Honda only has the batteries under an 80k warranty is more Honda's fault, whereas Toyota goes an extra 20k. Do Honda batteries have to be replaced more often?
The "electrocution" stories seem to be tempered by measures Toyota has taken in their latest models.
I also figure that as the technology gets better, some of the anecdotal, anti-hybrid perceptions simply won't be factual anymore. |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by wmquan
Are there any good FAQ's on hybrids? I'd like to learn more about them. I hear anecdotal comments like "oh, you're gonna pay through the nose to replace the battery" or "in an accident, you're going to get electrocuted." But I figure that the truth lays beyond and people just need more information on the newer models before making judgements.
E.g. from what you indicated and what the Toyota warranty seems to imply is that you won't have to pay for changing batteries until they have issues after 100k miles. Most of us can live with that, since many of us don't keep a car to 100k miles.
The fact that Honda only has the batteries under an 80k warranty is more Honda's fault, whereas Toyota goes an extra 20k. Do Honda batteries have to be replaced more often?
The "electrocution" stories seem to be tempered by measures Toyota has taken in their latest models.
I also figure that as the technology gets better, some of the anecdotal, anti-hybrid perceptions simply won't be factual anymore.
An interesting article that I read recently stated that emergency personel in certain areas were refusing to rescue people from Hybrids fearing potential battery explosions would put them at much higher risk than a regular vehicle. I don't know if I really believe that because the risk is also high for a gasoline explosion. |
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| Blackura |
quote:
Originally posted by wmquan
Are there any good FAQ's on hybrids? I'd like to learn more about them.
I think you'd have to visit the individual manufacturers' sites. The Lexus RX/Toyota Highlander have a more advanced system than the Toyota Prius. And the various Lexus/Toyota approaches are very different than the Honda systems. Each new generation improves upon the one before it. Then there's the GM system that they've put into some of their larger trucks that improves mileage by about one (1) mile per gallon. Obviously a very different system.
Seems the newer designs are more directed to performance (Honda Accord Hybrid, Lexus RX Hybrid and future LS and GS hybrids) along with some mileage improvements too. Previous systems (Honda Insight, Honda Civic Hybrid, Toyota Prius) emphasized only mileage at the expense of performance.
The Lexus design sought to have a V6 perform like a V8 and give the mileage of a 4 cylinder. They've come very close to achieving their goal. |
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| cardingtr |
..and there are articles today that some engineers tweaked the hybrids to get 250mpg. Yes, thats 250mpg!
If the only drawback is to plug it in the garage, that's a major milestone. |
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| mdx99 |
This is the hybrid of the hybrids!! ..Plug-in hybrid running at 200+mpg
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050813/hybrid_tinkerers.html
Isn't technology great! imagine if we only need 10% of what we used to consume everyday on gas, the terrorists will be eating their oil! |
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| gerrypez |
I drive both an MDX, and a Toyota Prius.
(1) I have 75,000 miles on the Prius, and I have not had any problems, not even the slightest. I have had problem with my MDX (rear fan, sensor failures, etc).
(2) I get 50 mpg - 3x better than the MDX !
(3) It has SULEV (super ultra low emissions); green
(4) The Prius has more power (acceleration) than my MDX
(5) There is a $3,000 tax credit now on the Prius
So, as an MDX owner (I really do like my MDX) and a hybrid owner, I can say the hybrids are awesome cars. If I go on a drive, I usually take my Prius over my MDX. |
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| SuitedPair |
An article in the New YOrk Times Sunday Auto section a few weeks back backed up a claim I have heard a number of times:
The Lexus RX hybrid gets WORSE gas mileage in real driving conditions than the standard RX.
That is hilarious. |
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| carguy1234 |
quote:
Originally posted by SuitedPair
An article in the New YOrk Times Sunday Auto section a few weeks back backed up a claim I have heard a number of times:
The Lexus RX hybrid gets WORSE gas mileage in real driving conditions than the standard RX.
That is hilarious.
I actually seriously considered a hybrid Highlander or RX before I bought the MDX. But I researched it out immensely, and found out through some people here with hybrids that you don't get any better mileage if your standard trip distance is short. I live close to work, and go home for lunch daily. So my typical trips are not long enough to benefit from the hybrid technology. This has been proved out by many in similar situations.
But if you are in the car a long time, and take longer trips, then it can work out to better mileage for sure than a standard ICE vehicle. |
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| EXCALIBUR |
quote:
Originally posted by gerrypez
I drive both an MDX, and a Toyota Prius.
(1) I have 75,000 miles on the Prius, and I have not had any problems, not even the slightest. I have had problem with my MDX (rear fan, sensor failures, etc).
(2) I get 50 mpg - 3x better than the MDX !
(3) It has SULEV (super ultra low emissions); green
(4) The Prius has more power (acceleration) than my MDX
(5) There is a $3,000 tax credit now on the Prius
So, as an MDX owner (I really do like my MDX) and a hybrid owner, I can say the hybrids are awesome cars. If I go on a drive, I usually take my Prius over my MDX.
Q: Which vehicle do you drive when you have to haul seven passengers and their luggage from the airport?:confused: |
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| Blackura |
quote:
Originally posted by EXCALIBUR
Q: Which vehicle do you drive when you have to haul seven passengers and their luggage from the airport?:confused:
I could barely fit a week's worth of luggage for 4 people in my MDX (yeah, two were women with all their outfits). Seven people? You'd have to rent one of those long extended full-size vans, I guess. Or the Partridge Family bus!
C'mon get happy! |
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| nightguy |
| Yah, you'd need a 15 passenger van...if you could keep it on the road. |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by EXCALIBUR
Q: Which vehicle do you drive when you have to haul seven passengers and their luggage from the airport?:confused:
Well, the Pilot would do that if the seven passengers were thong models traveling with only their modeling outfits.......:D . |
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| EXCALIBUR |
| Q: Am I right in guessing the Prius would be out of the running?:confused: |
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| Blackura |
quote:
Originally posted by EXCALIBUR
Q: Am I right in guessing the Prius would be out of the running?:confused:
Two Priuses would take eight people. They're pretty roomy, more so than a Camry. If you only had one Prius, the thong models could sit on the laps of the others. ;)
And even two Priuses (Prii? Priae?)would get similar or better mileage than one MDX and far better mileage than a large van. |
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| EXCALIBUR |
Blackura,
The EPA has just released these findings: "Whether you drive an MDX or Prius, your MPG will be best when there are thong models aboard.":29: |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by EXCALIBUR
Blackura,
The EPA has just released these findings: "Whether you drive an MDX or Prius, your MPG will be best when there are thong models aboard.":29:
As long as you have thong models onboard, then who the heck cares what your gas mileage is..........:4: . |
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| Blackura |
| As long as the thong models don't have gas, it should be a very pleasant ride. |
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| mdx99 |
Look guys! So you want some cars that can carry 7 persons with chicks that don't carry gas and you want to save gas or you don't care about gas.
Tough luck for the auto industry! |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by mdx99
Look guys! So you want some cars that can carry 7 persons with chicks that don't carry gas and you want to save gas or you don't care about gas.
Tough luck for the auto industry!
The first mfr to offer a cost effective hybrid SUV with a thong model option will get my business........:4: . |
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| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by EXCALIBUR
Q: Am I right in guessing the Prius would be out of the running?:confused:
Not quite yet! It's still in my radar screen since I found out the battery is under warranty for 10 years or some 140,000 miles(??) and $2000 tax credit from uncle sam. I am waiting for the new Honda Civic hybrid to come this year end so I can compare. |
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| Blackura |
quote:
Originally posted by JL_SS
The first mfr to offer a cost effective hybrid SUV with a thong model option will get my business........:4: .
Ironic how this has become the new "Hottest Thong" thread. :) |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by Blackura
Ironic how this has become the new "Hottest Thong" thread. :)
I mentioned hybrids in my statement...:4: . |
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| gerrypez |
> Which vehicle do you drive when you have to haul seven
> passengers and their luggage from the airport?
Oh right, that happens a lot.
Again, I like my MDX. I just had it off-road this weekend, up a 10,000 ft 4WD road - it did great! And I often haul around kids. Relax, I'm not trying to insult the MDX; remember I own one.
But, the hybrid (Prius) is better for 90% of my driving. It gets 3x better gas mileage, has more power, lower pollution, better visability, more quiet ride (actually silent at times), etc. |
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