| anjan |
Let me say at the outset - my question is about using a pre-wax cleaner. Let's keep off specific brands. I have seen how hot it gets with personal choices here :2:
Do any of you guys use something like a pre-wax cleaner that's supposed to go on BEFORE the polish is applied. Apparently, all these pre-cleaners have "micro abrasives". And when I go to professional detailing sites/user forums etc they say this is necessary to achieve the perfect reflection. Here's one example -
quote:
"Abrasives," you scream, "I don't want to use abrasives on my clear coat finish!" You do! This is a finishing polish. It is not a compound. The micro-fine abrasives are made for single stage and clear coat finishes. This polish increases light reflection, shine, by burnishing or smoothing the paint. It's the same concept NASA uses on the mirror in the Hubbel telescope. You burnish the mirror ultra-flat to maximize light reflection!
What do you think? And have any of you used something similar?
Thanks |
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| G. COLTON |
Are you talking about using a "cleaner" or "polish" before waxing? Are you even actually using a "wax" as a final coat or some other substance?
In the not too distant past it was most common to use a polish prior to waxing. In those instances the wax was just that, a wax and not one of these modern mixtures that both polishes and deposits a final protective coat.
How many steps I would go through to "wax" (using the term generically) depends upon the state of the finish. If the finish is in relatively bad condition I would use a "polish" prior to the final coat. If the finish is is pretty good condition I might just use one of the one step finishes.
G |
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| SuperTech |
| The "pre-wax" cleaner really just polishes out surface impurities before you put on a coat of sealer/wax. Personally, I'd rather use a clay bar as my pre-wax treatment. |
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| anjan |
quote:
Originally posted by G. COLTON
Are you talking about using a "cleaner" or "polish" before waxing? Are you even actually using a "wax" as a final coat or some other substance?
Actually, I'm looking at products that have three separate steps. So the first step, seems to be to remove imperfections (as SuperTech states, thanks!). The second being the "glaze" or polish, and the third one is the Carnauba wax.
I think then the Step 1 cleaning should only be used if you see imperfections or scratches in your paint. Otherwise, I can do only Step 2 and 3.
Thanks guys! |
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| G. COLTON |
I think you have it.
G |
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| jhue |
quote:
Originally posted by SuperTech
The "pre-wax" cleaner really just polishes out surface impurities before you put on a coat of sealer/wax. Personally, I'd rather use a clay bar as my pre-wax treatment.
Polishing (with a polish containing either chemical or abrasive cleaners) serves a completely different purpose than claying. Furthermore, neither product's cleaning capabilities overlap with the other.
Claying removes embedded contaminants from the paint. Polishing cannot do this. If you polish a surface with embedded contaminants, you end up with a surface that is smooth and shiny between the embedded contaminants, but still containing the embedded contaminants. You can do the baggie test and prove this to yourself. Unless you use a heavy cutting compound and remove a lot of clearcoat (which isn't polishing anymore, it's cutting) you're not going to remove any embedded contaminants by polishing.
Similarly, if you clay a surface which has both embedded contaminants and light oxidation, you will end up with a surface free of contaminants, but still with light oxidation.
Clay pulls particles out of the paint. Polishing cleans and/or burnishes the surface of the paint. Two different things, which require two different products. |
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| jhue |
Step 1: Wash
Step 2: Decontaminate (clay, when needed)
Step 3: Medium Compound (if needed)
Step 4: Fine Compound (if needed)
Step 5: Polish (when needed)
Step 6: Glaze (aka "pure polish", optional)
Step 7: Protect
Step 8: Top (optional)
Step 9: Finishing Spray
Most non-abused cars can probably skip step 3. And if you've taken good care of you car's finish, you could skip step 4 as well. Step 6 is personal preference, usually not needed on light colors, but often helpful on dark colors.
To give you an idea of some of the products that would be used in each of these steps I'll have to mention some product names.
Step 3: These should be applied with a rotary buffer and wool leveling pad. A dual-action polisher will not have sufficient cutting power. Here I would use something like Menzerna Power Gloss or Poorboy's SSR3. Rotary buffers should only be used by those who know what they're doing - it's easy to burn all the way through the base coat of your finish if you don't know what you're doing.
Step 4: These can be applied with a rotary or dual-action polisher, along with an orange or yellow compounding pad. Here I would use something like Menzerna Intensive polish, Poorboy's SSR 2, or Meguiar's #83.
Step 5: These should be applied with a dual-action polisher and a white polishing pad. Here I would use something like Menzerna Final Polish II or Meguiar's #82. Once every six months is the most often you should have to do this step. If you find you need to do this step more often, you need to take better care of your car (otherwise you risk going through all your clearcoat within a few years).
Step 6: Products here would include Menzerna Finishing Touch Glaze, Meguiar's #7 Showcar Glaze (hate it), 3M Imperial Hand Glaze, ClearKote Vanilla Moose Glaze, and Blackfire Gloss Enhancing Polish. Some body shops slather on glaze to hide the fact that did a lousy job of compounding and polishing. Once the sealant/wax wears off and the glaze washes off, you can see all the swirls and scratches.
Step 7: Sealants - the usual suspects, Zaino, Klasse, Wolfgang, Blackfire, Four Star, Poorboy's, etc.
Step 8: Wax - Pinnacle Souveran, P21S, Natty's, Finish Kare Pink Wax. This is optional, some sealants don't like to be topped (you get streaks or smears) or don't benefit from it (reduced shine or clarity).
Step 9: Finishing Spray - Zaino Z-6 or Z-8, Poorboy's QW+, Finish Kare 425, etc. |
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| rlmdx |
| jhue - you mentioned that you "hate" meguiar's #7 -- what don't you like about it? I have always used it on my black cars and I think it does a great job. I would love to know what you like better. Thanks for your summary of the "waxing" process! |
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| G. COLTON |
quote:
Originally posted by jhue
Step 1: Wash
Step 2: Decontaminate (clay, when needed)
Step 3: Medium Compound (if needed)
Step 4: Fine Compound (if needed)
Step 5: Polish (when needed)
Step 6: Glaze (aka "pure polish", optional)
Step 7: Protect
Step 8: Top (optional)
Step 9: Finishing Spray
Most non-abused cars can probably skip step 3. And if you've taken good care of you car's finish, you could skip step 4 as well. Step 6 is personal preference, usually not needed on light colors, but often helpful on dark colors.
To give you an idea of some of the products that would be used in each of these steps I'll have to mention some product names.
Step 3: These should be applied with a rotary buffer and wool leveling pad. A dual-action polisher will not have sufficient cutting power. Here I would use something like Menzerna Power Gloss or Poorboy's SSR3. Rotary buffers should only be used by those who know what they're doing - it's easy to burn all the way through the base coat of your finish if you don't know what you're doing.
Step 4: These can be applied with a rotary or dual-action polisher, along with an orange or yellow compounding pad. Here I would use something like Menzerna Intensive polish, Poorboy's SSR 2, or Meguiar's #83.
Step 5: These should be applied with a dual-action polisher and a white polishing pad. Here I would use something like Menzerna Final Polish II or Meguiar's #82. Once every six months is the most often you should have to do this step. If you find you need to do this step more often, you need to take better care of your car (otherwise you risk going through all your clearcoat within a few years).
Step 6: Products here would include Menzerna Finishing Touch Glaze, Meguiar's #7 Showcar Glaze (hate it), 3M Imperial Hand Glaze, ClearKote Vanilla Moose Glaze, and Blackfire Gloss Enhancing Polish. Some body shops slather on glaze to hide the fact that did a lousy job of compounding and polishing. Once the sealant/wax wears off and the glaze washes off, you can see all the swirls and scratches.
Step 7: Sealants - the usual suspects, Zaino, Klasse, Wolfgang, Blackfire, Four Star, Poorboy's, etc.
Step 8: Wax - Pinnacle Souveran, P21S, Natty's, Finish Kare Pink Wax. This is optional, some sealants don't like to be topped (you get streaks or smears) or don't benefit from it (reduced shine or clarity).
Step 9: Finishing Spray - Zaino Z-6 or Z-8, Poorboy's QW+, Finish Kare 425, etc.
Has anybody ever done this? Or even half of it?
g |
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| jhue |
quote:
Originally posted by rlmdx
jhue - you mentioned that you "hate" meguiar's #7 -- what don't you like about it? I have always used it on my black cars and I think it does a great job. I would love to know what you like better.
The last time I used it was years ago. Mainly, I found it hard to apply. It seemed t never dry, the finish would always smear after I put #7 on it. I've finally tried Menzerna Finishing Touch Glaze and i didn't experience the problems with it that I had with Meguiar's #7. I've also heard good things about ClearKote Vanilla Moose Glaze. |
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| jhue |
quote:
Originally posted by G. COLTON
Has anybody ever done this? Or even half of it?
g
Lots of enthusiasts do at least seven of the nine steps during their first detail after winter is over. It's pretty rare that someone does all three of 6, 7, and 8, usually just two steps are done (most people that use glaze and wax don't use sealant and vice-versa, in my experience). And compounding with a wool pad isn't something you want to do very often. But the other seven steps - sure, all the time. If you're not, well, you're just washing your car, not detailing it. This is the detailing forum right, not the car wash forum? |
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| screbr |
I just detailed my MDX a couple of weekends ago, and followed an abreviated version of jhue's list.
1. Dawn wash and dry
2. Applied paint cleanser with a PC 7336
3. Applied a sealant with PC and by hand; buff by hand
4. After 24 hours, applied a second coat of sealant
I had clay bar'ed the paint about 6 weeks ago, so I didn't bother with that again. I was extremely pleased with the results of the polish/sealant. As I posted in another thread, the SBP metallic flakes were just jumping off the car. It really looked great.
Per all the reading I've done on this topic, most will agree that the work you do to prep your paint is far more important than the final coat of sealant or wax. I won't do the polishing every time I apply a new coat of wax/sealant, but maybe once or twice a year as needed. |
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| anjan |
quote:
Originally posted by jhue
Polishing (with a polish containing either chemical or abrasive cleaners) serves a completely different purpose than claying. Furthermore, neither product's cleaning capabilities overlap with the other.
Clay pulls particles out of the paint. Polishing cleans and/or burnishes the surface of the paint. Two different things, which require two different products.
I'm not sure about how true your claim is - I've decided to use Mother's California Gold Pre-Wax Cleaner. The description on their site states -
quote:
This is the foundation of the Ultimate Wax System®, preparing your paint for Sealer and Glaze and Pure Carnauba Wax. Pre-Wax Cleaner removes oxidation, old wax buildup and other contaminants, cleaning and shining your paint. This mild polish smoothes the edges of larger imperfections and removes small scratches.
If I follow their system (and I've been really happy with Mothers' products) then Polishing is Step 2 (Calif. Gold Sealer and Glaze). I still need a finishing spray and I think I'll check the local stores to see if I find any of the ones you talk about. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by rlmdx
jhue - you mentioned that you "hate" meguiar's #7 -- what don't you like about it? I have always used it on my black cars and I think it does a great job. I would love to know what you like better. Thanks for your summary of the "waxing" process!
I can bet he'll probably say that sometimes it has a runny consistancy to it. You really have to shake the everloving crap out of the bottle to avoid it. The 3M stuff is a lot better. |
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| jhue |
quote:
Originally posted by anjan
I'm not sure about how true your claim is - I've decided to use Mother's California Gold Pre-Wax Cleaner. The description on their site states -
You can decide yourself by performing the baggie test before and after you polish with your paint cleanser. If you could feel the embedded particles sticking out before polishing, you will still be able to feel them after. Then clay the car, perform the baggie test, and report the results back here.
Claying pulls embedded contaminants like brake dust and rail dust out of the paint, and that polish you are going to use is not, especially if you apply it by hand. Nothing short of a pretty heavy compound is going to do that, and that's not something you need to be applying unless you're restoring a pretty bad finish.
A healthy dose of skepticism is good, but I think you need to go back to those detailing web sites and learn a little more. If the site you were on was not autopia.org, detailcity.org, or roadfly.org, I'd also say you need to pick a better site.
Before Claying
After Claying
Polishing after claying finely burnishes the surface of the paint to increase gloss, as well as rounding off the edges of scratches to make them less noticeable. A polish containing fillers will also make scratches less noticeable.
It's very unlikely that you can find any of the finishing sprays I listed in a retail store, unless you live in Vancouver BC and can buy Zaino in a store. |
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| anjan |
I think you're overhyping clay. Clay bars are good for old vehicles where the paint finish has taken a beating. It has its use. The baggie test will reveal nothing because my paint finish is in pristine condition.
Since I'm going with Mothers' product this time, they have clay bars too but it serves a different purpose. For someone that frequently polishes and waxes, a liquid cleaners will work fine on the selected areas where you'd see a minor amount of contaminants. As I understand, I might not even need to use it considering the my finish. |
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| jhue |
quote:
Originally posted by anjan
I think you're overhyping clay. Clay bars are good for old vehicles where the paint finish has taken a beating. It has its use. The baggie test will reveal nothing because my paint finish is in pristine condition.
You're clearly inexperienced when it comes to using clay.
A one year old car that is garaged at night but not during the day will have enough embedded particles to justiy claying. This is true even when you park in a location far from an industrial area that generates airborn pollutants. |
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| anjan |
quote:
Originally posted by jhue
You're clearly inexperienced when it comes to using clay.
A one year old car that is garaged at night but not during the day will have enough embedded particles to justiy claying. This is true even when you park in a location far from an industrial area that generates airborn pollutants.
Thanks for proving that you are sophomoric and pretentious person with too much free time.
How could you even judge what the condition of my car is? Irrespective of where I park, I'm not 19 with enough time to kill where I'll hunt for particles with a microscope and a bar of clay. Its time you grew up and realize the implicit value of a task. I'm not participating in a showcar contest and I don't need to be crass and prove my knowledge by cutting and pasting from web sites. You might have time to follow a 9 step procedure but for people with a LIFE just need to have a good finish on their car (like G said).
In the future, if you have an uncontrollable desire to be condescending then DO NOT reply to my questions. You are the only one in this thread that has provided me ZERO information. Instead of answering my question, you try to put on a display of your "knowledge" of the waxing process and recommend brands (which I expressly said I don't care about) |
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| jhue |
quote:
Originally posted by anjan
Idiotic rambling rant deleted
Touch a sensitive nerve, did I?
The fact is, even a brand new car right off the dealer's lot needs claying. Happens to be a current thread on detailcity.org.
http://www.detailcity.org/forums/de...-time-clay.html
Don't expect to be able to post clearly incorrect information (a nice way of saying "a bunch of uninformed sh*t") in a publically viewable forum and get away with it. Someone will call you on it. Perhaps not me, but somebody will. And if it makes you so upset for others to point out your errors, maybe you shouldn't post at all.
P.S. Claying an MDX takes 30 minutes or less and needs to be done at most a couple times a year. |
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| anjan |
Why are you wasting my time and others' with your asinine remarks and web links to topics completely different topics? Who asked you about clay? This thread was started by me. Did I ask you about clay bars? You should take some ritalin and if you feel so strongly about claying, start a thread and show how you clay your house, car, pets....
Moral of the story - IF YOU CAN'T READ, THEN DON'T ANSWER. Don't hijack a thread to show your über-knowledge of waxing as exhibited by your profilic ability to cut and paste URLs. Bravo!! :rolleyes:
And the following reiteration is keeping your ADD in mind. This was MY question. About ONE product. NOT clay. NO ONE asked about CLAY. The utility of claying is not in question here. I didn't ask about CLAYING. For all I care, you might as well be talking about lunar eclipses. ITS NOT RELATED. Realize that and take your knowledge and get a job at a detailing place. Leave answering questions those who can concentrate and read
Now don't come back with another link or another diatribe showcasing your internet talents. If not, you have the floor....blabber all you want. I got the information I needed from others. |
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