| dan_wa |
| Due to recent snow storms in the Seattle Area, we are thinking of buying a small Subaru (perhaps, an Outback) for my wife to drive to work (she has to go up a steep hill to get to her buildling). Does anyone now how good their AWD compared to the X? Thanks. |
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| JeffK |
I had two prior to my MDX and my son had one while in college in Hanover, NH.
Never got stuck and loved the car. (Absolutely bullet proof) Switched to the MDX because the MDX's leased out for only $50 more per month than the Outback.
I drove 8 to 10 times a winter to Vermont (250 miles) and my son back and forth from college to home (275 miles).
My son said it best: If the the roads remained opened he would always get through regardless of rain, sleet or snow!
Hope this helps.
JeffK |
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| wmquan |
Hi Dan.
We live in Redmond and work in Seattle. We have a 2001 MDX and a 2006 Subaru Outback XT wagon. My wife and I switch vehicles at least twice a weak so I'm familiar with both.
On paper, Subaru AWD is excellent -- though it does come in a number of different flavors. I prefer it (on paper) to the VTM-4 of the first-gen MDX. E.g. Subaru AWD doesn't wait for slippage and is driving all wheels substantially all the time (at some cost in fuel economy). In most models, the rears get a bit more torque than the fronts to give a bit of a sportier feel (very noticeable when you power through a corner).
Obviously Acura has moved to the SH-AWD which Subaru doesn't have. SH-AWD's advantages are more geared toward sporty handling.
Many Subaru AWD systems can only get stuck in the very infrequent times when only one of the front wheels have traction (earlier first-gen MDX's had this limitation too). Newer Subarus with VDC (stability control) use traction control for the front axle so they don't have this limitation either.
HOWEVER, Subaru puts poor tires on their Legacy/Outbacks!!! This negates the good Subaru AWD unless you replace the tires!!!! These weak tires are Bridgestone Potenza RE92A's. They are bad in snow and ice. Most of the Subaru forums have tons of complaints about them. "Crapenzas" are often used to name them. Survey ratings on Tire Rack confirm this.
Here's my personal experience with good AWD, bad tires:
Remember a few months ago, that Saturday in Seattle when there was a very light snowfall, on top of the leftover snow from a bigger storm a few days before?
That day, the Subaru kept chattering to stops, with the ABS firing off because the tires could not get grip.
The topper was when the Subaru slid past my driveway when I was maneuvering the slick 30 feet down the hill to my house. I could not control it into the driveway. I ended up letting the vehicle swing around all the way. I backed down the hill, using the curb to help me stop, and ended up a hundred feet downhill, past my house! It wouldn't climb back up the hill either.
I had to sand/salt the path back up the hill to get the Subaru back up. It had no problem climbing up after the tires got traction.
Meanwhile, the MDX with the excellent Cross Terrain SUV tires had no such problems. The ABS was not firing off when we tried to stop. We did turn on VTM-4 at times to get a surer feel.
We are going to replace the Subaru's Potenzas with better tires before next winter. By then they'll have about 28k miles on it so it's not too much of a loss.
Thus -- excellent AWD system saddled with bad tires. Add in the cost of a new set of tires to the purchase price, if you are intending to run the Subaru in the slick stuff. With proper shoes (I don't even mean winter tires, just better all-seasons), the Subaru will handle anything. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by wmquan
Obviously Acura has moved to the SH-AWD which Subaru doesn't have. SH-AWD's advantages are more geared toward sporty handling.
HOWEVER, Subaru puts poor tires on their Legacy/Outbacks!!! This negates the good Subaru AWD unless you replace the tires
Funny you should mention this...
The 2007 MDX is not very good in the snow compared to the 2001-06 version. SH-AWD and the much more pavement oriented Latitude tires aren't the best combination. |
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| shootist |
quote:
Originally posted by SuperTech
Funny you should mention this...
The 2007 MDX is not very good in the snow compared to the 2001-06 version. SH-AWD and the much more pavement oriented Latitude tires aren't the best combination.
Boy, I'm going to disagree with you on that point. I had a great time in a blizzard a few weeks ago. This was highway driving, of course, not trails.
It's easy to get spoiled driving this thing in snow. You push the accelerator, and it goes. Turn the wheel, and it goes to the side. Push the brakes and it stops. Indicator lights flash, ABS clicks away, but I'm happy. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by shootist
Indicator lights flash, ABS clicks away, but I'm happy.
And that's why I said what I did. The VSA has to step in more than ever now. And when you turn it off (as some people do in certain types of snow driving), things get crazy.
Just what some of our customers have said about it so far. Based on how the SH-AWD systme works, and looking at the new Michellins...I believe them. |
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| screbr |
A gazzillion Coloradans can't be wrong..... Seriously, it's like the State Car out here - they are all over the place.
I owned an Outback for 7 years and 96K miles. Still going strong when I sold it, and like JeffK said, it is a great car for snow and wet roads. You get many of the benefits of an SUV, but it drives like a car, and gets mileage like a car. :29: |
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| wmquan |
quote:
Originally posted by SuperTech
And that's why I said what I did. The VSA has to step in more than ever now. And when you turn it off (as some people do in certain types of snow driving), things get crazy.
Just what some of our customers have said about it so far. Based on how the SH-AWD systme works, and looking at the new Michellins...I believe them.
ABS firing off when braking is usually a bad sign (it was with the Subaru and its bad tires). That's usually a sign of tires that don't do well in snow/ice, though I'd imagine that straight braking is all on the tires and not the AWD system?
Do you think most of the issues you've heard about from customers is primarily due to the tires rather than the SH-AWD system? E.g. if one moves to Michelin Cross Terrains or another all-season that does well in snow/ice, does that pretty much rectify things?
Thanks. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by wmquan
though I'd imagine that straight braking is all on the tires and not the AWD system?
Do you think most of the issues you've heard about from customers is primarily due to the tires rather than the SH-AWD system?
While straight braking is more to do with the tires, acceleration and cornering is where the SH-AWD system comes into play. And on a low traction surface like snow, the SH-AWD's ability to shift more torque to the rear outside wheel in a turn is what causes problems. It sends more torque to the wheel, the wheel breaks traction, then the combined VSA system backs the torque off and/or intervenes with the brakes.
Tires that are more snow specific would help, but it's just the way the new SH-AWD system works that is just not ideal for snow. Don't get me wrong, it works great for dry surfaces where you've got great traction. But on low traction surfaces, the VSA system is what keeps you in control. So the VSA and SH-AWD are always fighting eachother in this situation. |
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| shootist |
ST- The new VSA is supposed to be Cooperative VSA. It's supposed to tell the Shawd to play nice when low traction is detected.
You've given some good insights on your own driving experience in MDX's in the past; it seems like this time you're reporting on what people are telling you.
I would be suspect of drivers that turn off the VSA/ traction control while driving. That works on the old traction controls, expecailly when you're rocking the car out of a snow bank.
But if you close your eyes, and stomp the gas pedal in the snow, everything works like it should. You just go where you want to go.
My experience has been limited to 5 hours of driving in sleet and snow, with 6-10 inches of mashed potato snow, on highways and county roads. With that experience, I'm sold on computer control. |
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| SuperTech |
quote:
Originally posted by shootist
ST- The new VSA is supposed to be Cooperative VSA. It's supposed to tell the Shawd to play nice when low traction is detected.
You've given some good insights on your own driving experience in MDX's in the past; it seems like this time you're reporting on what people are telling you.
The way I see it, if the vehicle is set up properly, and the driver has some skill...you shouldn't have to rely on computer control to negotiate a snowy road. People have been driving in the snow for a century without computer assist. Now this new MDX comes along and you absolutely have to have the VSA on or just driving the way you've normally handled the snow will spin you right off the road.
And yes, I'm just going by what the customers who've had a 1st gen MDX and now have a 2007 model are telling me. But based on what I know from being trained on the SH-AWD system, I can corroborate what they've been saying. They don't like hearing the ABS working and all the warning lights going off when the only thing they changed about their driving style is "upgrade" to a new MDX from the old one. |
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| dan_wa |
| Good discussion and a lot of good info. How about traction in the rain (it rains a lot in the North West, you know)? |
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| wmquan |
quote:
Originally posted by dan_wa
Good discussion and a lot of good info. How about traction in the rain (it rains a lot in the North West, you know)?
To be fair, I haven't noticed any issues with the Bridgestone Potenzas and the Subaru in the rain. I suspect the stopping distances are a bit longish, but so are the distances with the MDX.
Here are Tire Rack reviews of the OEM tires:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...Rating=V#Survey
I'm really careful about how I spend money, and for me to want to replace the tires before they wear out shows how badly they performed this winter. I didn't replace them immediately since I figured it wouldn't snow like that again ;-)
This is an EXCELLENT site for Subaru information: www.cars101.com
The salesperson, Joe Spitz, has a very strong reputation. He gives a good price quote from the beginning. Since I live on the Eastside and wanted to buy from the dealer where I get service at, I didn't go with him, though.
Walker Renton Subaru gives very good price quotes on Subaru (though Joe gives a good price quote on the first try, whereas Renton had to get antsy to give a better quote). I bought from Chaplins VW/Subaru and had to use other dealers' price quotes to get it down to a good price. |
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| coulomberic |
quote:
Originally posted by shootist
Boy, I'm going to disagree with you on that point. I had a great time in a blizzard a few weeks ago. This was highway driving, of course, not trails.
It's easy to get spoiled driving this thing in snow. You push the accelerator, and it goes. Turn the wheel, and it goes to the side. Push the brakes and it stops. Indicator lights flash, ABS clicks away, but I'm happy.
Do you have the Bridgestones or Michelins on your X? |
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| shootist |
| US Sport package always has Michelins. How about the Canadian? |
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| coulomberic |
Base model gets Bridgestones.
When you get the Elite (Sport-Tech-Ent), you get the different wheels mounted with Michelins.
As winter is serious up here, I got another set of Acura OEM wheels (same as base) and got 4 Blizzak LM-22 mounted on. |
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