| joekids |
| I GIVE UP As a 35 year union worker and supporter I have been buying american cars for years (mostly Lincolns) I traded my wife's continentl on a small Lexus last year and was so shocked that the cheapest Lexus was a better car then the Lincoln,so this week I traded my 2006 Towncar Limited (the worst Lincoln I have ever owned) on a 2007 MDX .What a car,I have not been so exited about a new car since my 1968 Firebird. Sorry to all my union brothers but I will no longer Buy American Joekids |
|
|
| LionSpeed |
quote:
Originally posted by joekids
I GIVE UP As a 35 year union worker and supporter I have been buying american cars for years (mostly Lincolns) I traded my wife's continentl on a small Lexus last year and was so shocked that the cheapest Lexus was a better car then the Lincoln,so this week I traded my 2006 Towncar Limited (the worst Lincoln I have ever owned) on a 2007 MDX .What a car,I have not been so exited about a new car since my 1968 Firebird. Sorry to all my union brothers but I will no longer Buy American Joekids
Welcome to the "Sushi" family
:7:
___________________
2007 MDX Blue Steel/Ebony
2007 Lexus ES350
2003 Lexus ES300
2000 Honda Accord V6-EX |
|
|
| gmc74 |
I still have an american car, 2003 Ford Thunderbird... it is fun to drive, but it lacks some of the features of other cars I have had.
I buy what I like, and unfortunately, the american car manufacturers are out of touch with my wants... that being said, the new camaro is pretty sweet looking! |
|
|
| joekids |
| I will still keep my HALF American,HALF Italian Cadillac Allante I guess they call that baby steps Joekids |
|
|
| Fabvsix |
| No welcome to America! The LAST POS American made car my father bought was a 1965 mustang, he never bought American after that. He will be 78 years old and BORN IN AMERICA! Sorry it took you SO many years to realize that current American made cars are mostly JUNK from the get go. Depreciation should have been a clue! :1: :1: :1: And NO I'm not Asian born in America, I'm PURE CAUCASIAN BORN AND RAISED IN AMERICA! Never knew what Sushi was till I moved to Caliphony 19 years ago.......LMAO ! I've driven Japanese all my driving years too ! :cool: :cool: Now I'm a dying breed in my own country! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: |
|
|
| deanking |
I have owned many big 3 cars and trucks. I refuse to call them American because I think more of my Honda was built in this country than my last Ford. I wish I could buy a Japanese built car but that is pretty rare these days.
My X and my Accord are the only defect free vehicles I have ever owned. The big 3 don't get it. They think it is design or product mix or marketing or pension costs or whatever the excuse is this year. They twist their surveys to convince themselves that their quality is better than it is.
Personally, I find the whole thing sad. I still prefer big 3 design but I simply don't have the time in my life to keep driving back and forth to the mechanic. At this point it would take a big reason for me to buy anything other than Honda or Toyota. |
|
|
| m500 |
| That Oldmobie Lucern Super Sport sure looks nice. Remind me of my first car way back an Olds 88 Braham. :2: |
|
|
| Fabvsix |
That is why I am keeping my 100% Japan made 2004 8 year production RL ! Call it boring, call it old fashion as its the BEST car I've bought! I waited 7.5 years for this puppy and got it for $20,000.00 out the door brand spanking new with 5 miles on the odo. Drove out like I stole it.
Price: $47,xxx.00
Discount for the first time in company history to make room for the all new Accord steroid looking RL which by the way is NOT selling well....Discount: $8000.00 off sticker price less
Trade: $13,000.00 for 2001 CL which was junk made in Ohio with a time bomb transmission
Financed remaining balance of $19,xxx.00, paid off loan in less than 6 months....
It remains in my garage covered with ONLY 19,000 miles and just turned 3 years old. How many times back to dealership? NOT ONE, NADA, NOTHING ! Only American part on it are the Michelin tires which are made in America! Consumer Reports rates is all solid RED dots ! :2: :2: Fit and finish is Superior to my 2007 MDX......:( |
|
|
| Fabvsix |
| People till this day ask me "oh what model Mercedes Benz is that" or "Oh what model BMW is that"? Great marketing Acura, just great and they wonder why the new RL is in the dump??????? Acura's marketing SUCKS donkey balls ! :1: |
|
|
| Mike_TX |
I hate to burst your bubble, Fav, but the 2004 RL was as much an Accord as the 2005-07. Which is to say NOT VERY.
You're often going to find a family resemblance in the Honda/Acura family, but I can assure you the current RL is not an Accord on steroids. If so, then steroids are a good thing. My '06 RL is a distinctly different car from the Accord in so many ways you can't count 'em.
Saying an RL is an Accord is about as accurate as saying the new MDX is a Pilot.
.
. |
|
|
| gmc74 |
I have had a mix, some beaters, some nice...
83 Plymouth Turismo 2.2 - This was a POS, but it was my first car and I drove it as such
79 Mercury Cougar - got this in 91 with 9,000 miles on it, then beat the crap out of it
89 Pontiac Grand Prix SE - This was fun car, it had a lot of toys, and a 5 speed.
96 Mazda 626 -My first new car, this was crap
94 Mazda Miata - This was the most fun car I have ever driven, a bit rough considering I am over 6' tall and weighed about 220 when I got it.
98 GMC Jimmy - this was ok, rattled like a ***** though
2001 Excursion - ahh, this was fun and a hauler
2003 Thunderbird - this is a fun weekend car
2004 Nissan Maxima - good power, horrible fit and finish
2007 MDX - So far so good...
Not too bad, 10 cars in 17 years... never totalled any of them, I just get bored quickly. |
|
|
| Fabvsix |
| The 04 RL was NO comparo to any accord. In fact it is still called a HONDA LEGEND in Japan ! It was renamed in 1996 to please us Americans ! Dumb move in my humble opinion....... |
|
|
| LionSpeed |
quote:
Originally posted by Fabvsix
The 04 RL was NO comparo to any accord. In fact it is still called a HONDA LEGEND in Japan ! It was renamed in 1996 to please us Americans ! Dumb move in my humble opinion.......
I did see a picture on the web showing a 2006 RL with HONDA logo on it in Europe. |
|
|
| m500 |
| Acura, Lexus and Infiniti are all created just for US market. |
|
|
| mdx99 |
If the big 3 stop making what they want but start making what the consumers want, people will definitely buy American made. Stop making those boxy junk box like Taheo, expedition etc. & stop changing new names every model year.
My first car was J2000 (AKA JUNK 2000) & it was my last American car ever since then.:1: |
|
|
| crazymjb |
Ah, the American full size SUV's sell excellently. GM's newer lineup is pretty well liked. Not everyone wants to drive a lifted sedan with a taller roof as an "SUV"
I love the new MDX, but it is a crossover. People here call them trucks and such, its laughable. The "import" SUV market is much different than the domestic one. If my parents were looking for a larger SUV I would point them right towards the Tahoe over any toyota model.
I'd also like to point you towards the C6 Z06. I believe a member here has one. American cars are junk, eh :rolleyes:
Mike |
|
|
| m500 |
I'll take time for the big 3 to regain and rebuilt the image they have destroyed themselves. They use to call Japanese car junk as well and 20 years later they are junk no more. Its gonna be a slow and painful process to rebuild itself to an Respectable automaker again.
Japanese auto maker has make their statement and are here to stay. The big 3 will need to worry about competition from Korea now. Seem like they are making all the right moves nowadays. |
|
|
| qqzj |
in a few years, big 3 will have a harder time b/c chinese are coming following koreans. i do not know how they are going to survive this. what is interesting is that big 3 are actually helping chinese car makers. are they nuts?
quote:
Originally posted by m500
I'll take time for the big 3 to regain and rebuilt the image they have destroyed themselves. They use to call Japanese car junk as well and 20 years later they are junk no more. Its gonna be a slow and painful process to rebuild itself to an Respectable automaker again.
Japanese auto maker has make their statement and are here to stay. The big 3 will need to worry about competition from Korea now. Seem like they are making all the right moves nowadays.
|
|
|
| BostonX |
| I don't even like renting American cars because of my recent (past ten years) experiences. |
|
|
| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by qqzj
in a few years, big 3 will have a harder time b/c chinese are coming following koreans. i do not know how they are going to survive this. what is interesting is that big 3 are actually helping chinese car makers. are they nuts?
What do the big 3 care? All they care is wherever there are cheap labor, they will run after that & profit! Eventually, they can't sell the cars cause of poor quality & have to practically give it away at a loss just to survive. Everything is short term, by cutting cost, quality will be the first to suffer & it just keep on snow-balling. Instead, they should aim at improving quality at all cost, sell it at a higher price if necessary, customers will eventually come back.
20 years from now, the Chinese will rule the low end cheap junk car market, the Korean will rule the mid-range, the Japanese & German will rule the high-end luxury car market. American will be sellling Hum-V like specialty car. Note that how the Japanese are fighting back with Scion in the low end market.
The big 3 need to send all their managers to brain wash & re-program their minds to nothing but QUALITY, QUALITY & QUALITY.
It's the same american work force at Honda-OHIO & Toyota-Kentucky that built those Accord & Camry. I don't understand why GM/Ford can't build reliable cars, seems like management problem more than anything else. |
|
|
| G. COLTON |
When are people going to learn to size their pictures so that they do not extend the horizontal width of these threads? Also makes many pictures impossible to see.
G |
|
|
| m500 |
quote:
Originally posted by G. COLTON
When are people going to learn to size their pictures so that they do not extend the horizontal width of these threads? Also makes many pictures impossible to see.
G
We'll need an admin to step in to resize it for us. :D
Getting back to the subject. I love American Muscle cars but I probably will not buy one until I retired. It'll be the same reason why I gave up German car and go with full Japanese line up. Cause I need to be able to get to work on time with a dependable vehicle since I have no spare car to take to work. |
|
|
| hondacuraworld |
It's all in perspective.
By today's definition, there was never a quality muscle car ever built. I never wax philosophical over cars of the '60s and '70s, because I owned them back when they were just cheap used cars. That's not to say I don't like them, but I'm willing to spend a Saturday under the hood of a car once a month or more to keep it going. To me, having to work on a car is part of the man/machine relationship. I actually kind of like it :)
It's all about what you want and need in a vehicle. I've been in hundreds of similar import vs. domestic threads in 7 years of being on Honda/Acura forums, and IMO it's too generalized to say that all American cars are junk. |
|
|
| qqzj |
Sorry if I am rude, but nowadays people talks about man/machine relationship they mean man and computers. I guess the generation gap is showing up :)
quote:
Originally posted by hondacuraworld
It's all in perspective.
By today's definition, there was never a quality muscle car ever built. I never wax philosophical over cars of the '60s and '70s, because I owned them back when they were just cheap used cars. That's not to say I don't like them, but I'm willing to spend a Saturday under the hood of a car once a month or more to keep it going. To me, having to work on a car is part of the man/machine relationship. I actually kind of like it :)
It's all about what you want and need in a vehicle. I've been in hundreds of similar import vs. domestic threads in 7 years of being on Honda/Acura forums, and IMO it's too generalized to say that all American cars are junk.
|
|
|
| hondacuraworld |
| I'm 35, but what can I say, my other vehicle is a Farmall :) |
|
|
| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by crazymjb
I'd also like to point you towards the C6 Z06. I believe a member here has one. American cars are junk, eh :rolleyes:
Mike
The Vette is nice, as far as horsepower, speed and handling. Have you looked at the dashboard?
If you spend $60,000 on a Vette, shouldn't your interior be better than that of a $15,000 Cobalt? I think so... but it isn't.
No one doubts the performance of the Vette, the rattles and the crappy fit and finish is what kept me from buying one. |
|
|
| crazymjb |
Of course the Vette isn't perfect, but it's my example of "non-junk." Its European counterpart is no less than twice as much in terms of cost.
In terms of American cars styling... I have to say the 2007 Tahoe's are beautiful. I also happen to think the Mustang is one of the most attractive cars out there, and if they push the new Challenger and Camaro through those will join the ranks.
Personal preference, but that doesn't change blanketing all American cars as junk is wrong.
Mike |
|
|
| gmc74 |
I agree that some of the exteriors of the retro cars (mustang, camaro, challenger) are great, but the interior of the car seems to be where the american cars are lacking.
That and the engines. My Nissan Maxima had a 3.5 liter engine that put out 265 hp, the Pontiac Grand Prix had a 3.6 liter with a supercharger, and it put out 260...
The foreign car makers are making more efficient engines, and better quality fit and finish (Toyota and Honda, Nissan fit and finish blows too). Unfortunately, that is the reality these days.
I am all for american cars, but unfortunately they don't match up across the board. |
|
|
| dotw |
| I just heard that if you don't buy American cars, you might be supporting terror. I wonder if this means cars with 'turbin' engines. |
|
|
| hondacuraworld |
With all of the American manufacturers turning to their heritage to sell cars, I found a website that has spy shots of Ford's new prototype retro touring sedan, due to be released in the spring of 2011....
Wonder if this one will be called the "Taurus" too? :22:
And yeah, I'd buy one :D |
|
|
| keremoner |
American car makers are in trouble and the reasons are obvious. They are extremely non responsive to their target audience as far as design and quality of finish are concerned. Hondas and Toyotas are made here also but mostly under Japanese management and philosophy. That is why they appeal more to the average Joe as far as reliability and design are concerned. Koreans are next. Hyundai is already rated as reliable as Honda, and at a lower price at that. Kia is also a pretty good vehicle. Almost all my friends who own new American cars have problems with their cars.
Another aspect of the problem is the financially hopeless position the big three find themselves in. No Asioan auto maker is saddled with the kind of pension obligations and union wages the big three are saddled with. I don't see an end to the woes of the US car makers in the near term. |
|
|
| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by keremoner
No Asian auto maker is saddled with the kind of pension obligations and union wages the big three are saddled with. I don't see an end to the woes of the US car makers in the near term.
This is a big issue for US auto manufacturers...
Keep in mind the Hondas and Toyotas are assembled in the US, but it wasn't designed here, and that may be where the big difference comes in. |
|
|
| hipcheck |
I have a slightly different take on the American automakers.
One thing they really don't get are options. They offer every car in multiple trims (and usually brands) plus have a zillion different options. To me that opens up the opportunity for problems and increases labor costs.
I've owned many BMWs and they are all about options. My BMWs were as reliable as American cars (not good).
GMC guy, I am with you. Nissan has turned into the 4th American car company. Their recent quality is terrible and their cars smell of cost cutting.
The new GMC crossovers (Outlook, Arcadia, Enclave) are pretty good. They still suffer from some cost sutting, but they offer a nice ride with a modern engine. But they suffer from the same options problem and a price that seems to be set for future rebates. |
|
|
| qqzj |
Is nissan that bad? I am thinking about a G35. Has the qualify of infiniti been dragged down as well?
quote:
Originally posted by hipcheck
I have a slightly different take on the American automakers.
One thing they really don't get are options. They offer every car in multiple trims (and usually brands) plus have a zillion different options. To me that opens up the opportunity for problems and increases labor costs.
I've owned many BMWs and they are all about options. My BMWs were as reliable as American cars (not good).
GMC guy, I am with you. Nissan has turned into the 4th American car company. Their recent quality is terrible and their cars smell of cost cutting.
The new GMC crossovers (Outlook, Arcadia, Enclave) are pretty good. They still suffer from some cost sutting, but they offer a nice ride with a modern engine. But they suffer from the same options problem and a price that seems to be set for future rebates.
:eek: :eek: |
|
|
| m500 |
quote:
Originally posted by qqzj
Is nissan that bad? I am thinking about a G35. Has the qualify of infiniti been dragged down as well?
:eek: :eek:
Not sure about Nissan but I happen to own a 2004 G35 Sport for 2 full years. I love it and its perfect. Services are great and professional. If not due to Lexus offering that insane discount on 06 LS, I was really to sign the paper for M45 Sport. |
|
|
| mdx99 |
The big 3 have a lot to learn from Apple's Steve Job, here we have an American enterprise selling hot cakes (Ipod, iphones & Mac's) unique to its field at outrageous prices in a highly competitive industry similar to the car industry. Beating the Japanese in both technology & design, although still utilizing the cheap Chinese labor for Ipods & iphones but sell at high prices.
Unique, excellent design, quality are what the consumers want!
NOT some cheap boxy, fake wood, plastic & outdated dashboard, chessy $50 radio, just hire some designers from Apple & engineers from Boeing, I am sure we can beat the import & I will be the first one to sell my MDX & get the "ICAR":1: |
|
|
| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by qqzj
Is nissan that bad? I am thinking about a G35. Has the qualify of infiniti been dragged down as well?
:eek: :eek:
Nissan/Inifinti vehicles are typically better than average in the CR reliability ratings. The exceptions are the Titan, Quest, Armada, and QX which show up at the bottom of the reliability charts in their segments with a much worse than average rating. |
|
|
| hipcheck |
quote:
Originally posted by JL_SS
Nissan/Inifinti vehicles are typically better than average in the CR reliability ratings. The exceptions are the Titan, Quest, Armada, and QX which show up at the bottom of the reliability charts in their segments with a much worse than average rating.
And throw in the Maxima which has been rated average for a number of years putting it in the category of many American sedans. The previous Maxima was very highly rated, then the cost cutting hit it.
In response to Infiniti, they appear to be much better built (and built in Japan). Just test driving them I can tell a big difference from Nissan. |
|
|
| gmc74 |
I had no issues with the Maxima's power, it was awesome for what it was.
The rattles, the misaligned interior parts, and the cheap feel to the interior really turned me off to Nissan. I will never buy another Nissan/Infiniti after that car.
My brother in law just bought a G35, he seems to like it. |
|
|
| gmc74 |
BTW, I would be the last person to buy the iCar... if it is anything like every other 'i' product, it will be big on hype, have a huge sticker price, be completely based on parts you can't get from anyone other than apple, and the batteries will die often :)
BTW, did you hear that the iPhone only activated 143,000 units the first week, when their low end estimates were 500,000? Yeah, a bit too much iHype on that one.
Who wants to guess how many accidents are caused by people trying to dial a phone with out buttons, while driving? |
|
|
| cardingtr |
The big 3 is not an automaker anymore. It has turned into a big pension company many years ago financed by selling cars.
:( |
|
|
| keremoner |
How true !!! They are more preoccupied with their pension funds than making quality cars. They have to because they are in a life and death sttruggle with their pension liabilities weighing them down. Thank you unions and poor management!!
quote:
Originally posted by cardingtr
The big 3 is not an automaker anymore. It has turned into a big pension company many years ago financed by selling cars.
:(
|
|
|
| gmc74 |
I would thank the poor management.
Unions, which sometimes are evil in the way they work, are only going to screw a company (like a cancer) if the company allows it... and that is exactly what we have here. |
|
|
| keremoner |
Yeah, poor negotiating skills on the part of management. I can see a skilled electrician making big bucks maybe but why the hell does a high school drop out assembly line worker should make $40 per hour with excellent benefits to boot? Ridiculous.
quote:
Originally posted by gmc74
I would thank the poor management.
Unions, which sometimes are evil in the way they work, are only going to screw a company (like a cancer) if the company allows it... and that is exactly what we have here.
|
|
|
| gmc74 |
I agree, the unions were a cancer on the big 3, which is why they all supported NAFTA which allows them to easily move jobs to Canada and Mexico, and avoid the union issues.
The unions end up hurting themselves in the process of getting more than they deserve. |
|
|
| qqzj |
There are many things you, or most of us, cannot imagine. Your example is nothing or really normal compared to wages for workers working on the docks of Long Beach of California.
I heard that those people, typically not highly educated, can easily make more than 100k due to unions. People in the big 3 must be really jealous of them. Sometimes, I really wish that I am one of them too.
quote:
Originally posted by keremoner
Yeah, poor negotiating skills on the part of management. I can see a skilled electrician making big bucks maybe but why the hell does a high school drop out assembly line worker should make $40 per hour with excellent benefits to boot? Ridiculous.
|
|
|
| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by qqzj
There are many things you, or most of us, cannot imagine. Your example is nothing or really normal compared to wages for workers working on the docks of Long Beach of California.
I heard that those people, typically not highly educated, can easily make more than 100k due to unions. People in the big 3 must be really jealous of them. Sometimes, I really wish that I am one of them too.
Believe it or not! Those dock laborer (at least that's what I call them) are making $37 now & they want $53, that's a whopping 43% raise they want. I say: SC*^^ them, fire all of them & hire someone from the south. No wonder we can't complete with the Far East.:3: |
|
|
| gmc74 |
Yeah, it is crazy when you think about it.
We are really talking about unskilled laborers, maybe not to the level of the guy who cleans my yard, but not a heck of a lot more than that. Sure, they are taught a skill, and they are then somewhat skilled laborers, but all in all, they aren't.
So then you get to thinking about it, these people are making more than most teachers, firefighters, and policemen... pretty sad. |
|
|
| BLEXV6 |
| The major reason Ford, Chrysler and GM are going down, aside from quality and fit and finish, is that people who always bought these cars got fed up and bought a Japanese nameplate. Once they did this, they realized that their is no comparison in fit and finish, and then find they are reliable over time. As such, they never go back. Of course guys like me have owned Japanese vehicles for the past 22 years because the POS vehicles my Dad had did not impress me. Now my whole Family drives Hondas. I have several friends who have made the switch. |
|
|
| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by BLEXV6
The major reason Ford, Chrysler and GM are going down, aside from quality and fit and finish, is that people who always bought these cars got fed up and bought a Japanese nameplate. Once they did this, they realized that their is no comparison in fit and finish, and then find they are reliable over time. As such, they never go back. Of course guys like me have owned Japanese vehicles for the past 22 years because the POS vehicles my Dad had did not impress me. Now my whole Family drives Hondas. I have several friends who have made the switch.
You get a double whammy with the US brands. Bad reliability and lousy resale. |
|
|
| cardingtr |
At this point, GM or big three has no problem selling cars. The problem is in the profit margin.
GM has to sell LOTS of cars to make a...loss. Their profit margin is negative the last time I checked. Honda and Toyota has profit margin between 5-7%. So even if they are selling less car compared, they are in a better position.
So what is eating at GMs margin? I think you guessed it from my previous post. The irony of the problem is, although healthcare benefits is the problem, they focused on it too much they forgot the main issue, making great cars and the culture that we all want all the rights, benefits without accepting responsibilities.
Since GM has become a benefits company financed by selling cars, I would require ALL employees to submit to blood test before they can continue to be an employee. GM healthcare liabilities is staggering but after a beneficiary got a bypass surgery, did they change their lifestyle? Talking about responsibilities! |
|
|
| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by gmc74
Yeah, it is crazy when you think about it.
We are really talking about unskilled laborers, maybe not to the level of the guy who cleans my yard, but not a heck of a lot more than that. Sure, they are taught a skill, and they are then somewhat skilled laborers, but all in all, they aren't.
So then you get to thinking about it, these people are making more than most teachers, firefighters, and policemen... pretty sad.
Also pretty close to what most licensed engineers, college professors & HS principals getting paid, give me a break, what knid of skills do they need to move those monster lifts & drving forklifts. Any middle school graduates can do it with a few weeks training.:3: |
|
|
| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by mdx99
If they get that raise to $53, that will be pretty close to what most licensed engineers, college professors & HS principals getting paid, give me a break, what knid of skills do they need to move those monster lifts & drving forklifts. Any middle school graduates can do it with a few weeks training.:3:
|
|
|
| keremoner |
At the risk of politicizing the discussion a bit, this is exactly why anything that resembles socialism does not work. If you tamper with market forces, which unions obviously do by imposing superficial wages, you end up getting burned at the end. No one is holding a gun at anyone's head so when it becomes too expensive to buy american (both cost and quality wise), people buy foreign.
Same goes for minimum wage issue. Government should make it easier to let people pull themselves up by the boot straps, not create artificial wage levels. If anyone who makes the minimum wants to make more, either get educated (or get a trade) or be content with your salary.
Free markets reign any attempts to tamper with them (wage and price controls, etc) are always doomed to fail. |
|
|
| m500 |
I guess this explain why some of the foreign competitor are a lot more efficient.
quote:
Originally posted by keremoner
At the risk of politicizing the discussion a bit, this is exactly why anything that resembles socialism does not work. If you tamper with market forces, which unions obviously do by imposing superficial wages, you end up getting burned at the end. No one is holding a gun at anyone's head so when it becomes too expensive to buy american (both cost and quality wise), people buy foreign.
Same goes for minimum wage issue. Government should make it easier to let people pull themselves up by the boot straps, not create artificial wage levels. If anyone who makes the minimum wants to make more, either get educated (or get a trade) or be content with your salary.
Free markets reign any attempts to tamper with them (wage and price controls, etc) are always doomed to fail.
|
|
|
| greenjujube |
| The label on my MDX says Parts Content is 65% US/Canadian and only 35% Japanese. Toyota does most of their assembly in the US. |
|
|
| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by keremoner
At the risk of politicizing the discussion a bit, this is exactly why anything that resembles socialism does not work. If you tamper with market forces, which unions obviously do by imposing superficial wages, you end up getting burned at the end. No one is holding a gun at anyone's head so when it becomes too expensive to buy american (both cost and quality wise), people buy foreign.
Same goes for minimum wage issue. Government should make it easier to let people pull themselves up by the boot straps, not create artificial wage levels. If anyone who makes the minimum wants to make more, either get educated (or get a trade) or be content with your salary.
Free markets reign any attempts to tamper with them (wage and price controls, etc) are always doomed to fail.
Although I agree that socialism/or communism is a failure & we all see how the power of capitalism change the fate of China from a poor farming country to rich industrial power, I believe that minimum wage has nothing to do with one's educated level. When I was trying to work myself through college by working weekend & nights, a little raise of minimum wage would help a great deal. I think most people have a misconception that any one who flips a hamberger is uneducated.
I view minimum wage as a form of redistribution of wealth for fairness sake. Remember that the educated one doesn't always make the big bucks. In order to raise the standard of living of a country, you can't ignore the bottom level, that's how the French revolution starts & how China turned to Communism because the poors were ignored & exploited.
BTW, GM is finally moving in the right direction, trying to be mean & lean, making some $600 millions in the 2nd quarter, mostly from oversea though. |
|
|
| Goodgirl |
quote:
Originally posted by m500
We'll need an admin to step in to resize it for us. :D
Getting back to the subject. I love American Muscle cars but I probably will not buy one until I retired. It'll be the same reason why I gave up German car and go with full Japanese line up. Cause I need to be able to get to work on time with a dependable vehicle since I have no spare car to take to work.
I am loving my MDX and kept trying to talk hubby into getting an acura, BMW,audi...anything but a Ford. He is a mustang enthusiast and has driven mustang cobra convertibles for the last 10 years. He keeps them 4 trades up. Having got my MDX at invoice I cringe at the fact he paid $7500 over invoice for a 2008 shelby mustang cobra. I know it is said they will increase in value when it is a classic and Shelby is no longer around but he never keeps them more than 4 years. I just think it was :ucrazy: but he says I'm a woman and what do I know about mustangs? I know they are ford products..enough said. He will be taking delivery in the Fall. Just wish he had considered other muscle cars out there that would not have been so much over invoice yet some I heard have paid double that over invoice for these "rare" muscle cars:rolleyes: |
|
|
| hondacuraworld |
quote:
Originally posted by mdx99
Believe it or not! Those dock laborer (at least that's what I call them) are making $37 now & they want $53, that's a whopping 43% raise they want. I say: SC*^^ them, fire all of them & hire someone from the south. No wonder we can't complete with the Far East.:3:
Send me an application, immediately. |
|
|
| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by mdx99
Although I agree that socialism/or communism is a failure & we all see how the power of capitalism change the fate of China from a poor farming country to rich industrial power, I believe that minimum wage has nothing to do with one's educated level. When I was trying to work myself through college by working weekend & nights, a little raise of minimum wage would help a great deal. I think most people have a misconception that any one who flips a hamberger is uneducated.
I view minimum wage as a form of redistribution of wealth for fairness sake. Remember that the educated one doesn't always make the big bucks. In order to raise the standard of living of a country, you can't ignore the bottom level, that's how the French revolution starts & how China turned to Communism because the poors were ignored & exploited.
BTW, GM is finally moving in the right direction, trying to be mean & lean, making some $600 millions in the 2nd quarter, mostly from oversea though.
This reminds me of one of my favorite movie quotes of all time -
"Well, the world needs ditch diggers too!" |
|
|
| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by Goodgirl
I am loving my MDX and kept trying to talk hubby into getting an acura, BMW,audi...anything but a Ford. He is a mustang enthusiast and has driven mustang cobra convertibles for the last 10 years. He keeps them 4 trades up. Having got my MDX at invoice I cringe at the fact he paid $7500 over invoice for a 2008 shelby mustang cobra. I know it is said they will increase in value when it is a classic and Shelby is no longer around but he never keeps them more than 4 years. I just think it was :ucrazy: but he says I'm a woman and what do I know about mustangs? I know they are ford products..enough said. He will be taking delivery in the Fall. Just wish he had considered other muscle cars out there that would not have been so much over invoice yet some I heard have paid double that over invoice for these "rare" muscle cars:rolleyes:
IMHO, this is just crazy... but I have never liked Mustangs :) |
|
|
| keremoner |
There is no fairness in redistribution of wealth. Anyway you put it, it is socialism. College students apart, which is a temporary situation, most minimum wage earners (which there aren't as many as some would imagine since market forces have led to higher wages in most metropolitan areas) simply do not do much to improve their lives. For whatever reasons they are content. my point is that, it is up to the government, if anything, to make it possible for them to get a trade, education, or whatever to earn more money. It is not the governments responsibility to give hand outs to those who will not help themselves. Let the market dictate what minimum wage needs to be, like it has in most major cities. Supply and demand is what it is all about.
quote:
Originally posted by mdx99
I view minimum wage as a form of redistribution of wealth for fairness sake. Remember that the educated one doesn't always make the big bucks. In order to raise the standard of living of a country, you can't ignore the bottom level, that's how the French revolution starts & how China turned to Communism because the poors were ignored & exploited.
|
|
|
| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by keremoner
There is no fairness in redistribution of wealth. Anyway you put it, it is socialism. College students apart, which is a temporary situation, most minimum wage earners (which there aren't as many as some would imagine since market forces have led to higher wages in most metropolitan areas) simply do not do much to improve their lives. For whatever reasons they are content. my point is that, it is up to the government, if anything, to make it possible for them to get a trade, education, or whatever to earn more money. It is not the governments responsibility to give hand outs to those who will not help themselves. Let the market dictate what minimum wage needs to be, like it has in most major cities. Supply and demand is what it is all about.
I agree.
Raising the minimum wage, although it is nice at first look, has effects on everything else. When the minimum wage goes up, the cost of goods and services is soon to follow, and the ripple effect continues.
A business owner with a profitable business, is going to dictate his salary (i.e. his profit margin). If the government dictates that he has to pay his employees more, he will then raise the rate of his goods/services to match. We will then pay more, and to keep the market in perspective, our wages will go up with cost of living increases.
It is a cycle that doesn't end.
The reality is that you don't necessarily need a college education or a trade to do well, you need drive. I, like many people I know, did not finish college, but make more than the average person because I had the drive to go after what I wanted.
BTW, most college students aren't working for minimum wage, when I was in college, I always found jobs that were paying more than minimum wage. Were they as easy as flipping burgers, not usually... but then again, getting ahead in life isn't easy.
I have a friend who owns 2 subways, he only pulls in about 75K from them, after his expenses. The rise in his labor cost is going to come directly out of his pocket, or yours... where do you think it will come from? |
|
|
| keremoner |
You are right. I was meaning those without the entrepreneurial drive or make-up. Those are theones who'd need to either become something like an electrician, plumber, etc. or go to college to make more in the long run. I personally know several people worth in the 20-100+ million range who never went to college. They either inherited a family business or were entrepreneurs with great drive.
quote:
Originally posted by gmc74
I agree.
|
|
|
| Fabvsix |
| BOTTOM LINE: CASH TALKS AND BULL**** WALKS! Sad but true......:1: |
|
|
| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by Fabvsix
BOTTOM LINE: CASH TALKS AND BULL**** WALKS! Sad but true......:1:
Did you hit the bottle early today? I don't follow... |
|
|
| Fabvsix |
I've not drank since Saturday on my birthday.........burp......
;) :cool: |
|
|
| Blackura |
Just curious as to what all of you think should happen to the millions of people who are not as gifted, intelligent, talented, healthy, or lucky as we who drive our expensive SUVs, post digital pictures on this site of our beautiful dream homes and all the latest gadgetry and bling? Should we just let them starve to death because their circumstances are different than ours? Perhaps poverty and adversity has not touched us in our lifetimes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, does it?
Honestly, I can see the points you are making and do agree to some extent, and always have. There certainly are bad people out there who milk the system and they need to be cut off.
Sometimes though. I think our sentiments from high above the fray need to be balanced with having compassion and helping those less fortunate. Not everybody is capable of overcoming their adversity. Who should provide for them? If not you, the fortunate, than who?
Your thoughts?
Thanks in advance. |
|
|
| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by Blackura
Just curious as to what all of you think should happen to the millions of people who are not as gifted, intelligent, talented, healthy, or lucky as we who drive our expensive SUVs, post digital pictures on this site of our beautiful dream homes and all the latest gadgetry and bling? Should we just let them starve to death because their circumstances are different than ours? Perhaps poverty and adversity has not touched us in our lifetimes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, does it?
Honestly, I can see the points you are making and do agree to some extent, and always have. There certainly are bad people out there who milk the system and they need to be cut off.
Sometimes though. I think our sentiments from high above the fray need to be balanced with having compassion and helping those less fortunate. Not everybody is capable of overcoming their adversity. Who should provide for them? If not you, the fortunate, than who?
Your thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
It seems like we do have passionated people around this planet, thanks God.:2: |
|
|
| mdx99 |
quote:
Originally posted by hondacuraworld
Send me an application, immediately.
Tim:
First, you need to grow a beard, drink lots of beer then try to drive a forklift without hitting my car, that's all you need to get the job. 50% of our imports went thru Long Beach everyday, plenty of jobs cause we keep buying those cheap imports. For every million pairs of shoes, all we have to do is to ship a M-series tank to Taiwan & make up the trade balance. I think we have a good deal.:1: |
|
|
| hondacuraworld |
quote:
Originally posted by mdx99
Tim:
First, you need to grow a beard, drink lots of beer then try to drive a forklift without hitting my car, that's all you need to get the job. 50% of our imports went thru Long Beach everyday, plenty of jobs cause we keep buying those cheap imports. For every million pairs of shoes, all we have to do is to ship a M-series tank to Taiwan & make up the trade balance. I think we have a good deal.:1:
Well, I'm clean shaven for the first time in 4 years (lost the mustache/goatee over the weekend, kids keep looking at me funny), I've been drinking my share of Miller High Life this last week (been hot as Hades out, and yeah, I like the stuff ;) ), and I can parallel park a Farmall tractor.
Howsat? :) |
|
|
| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by Blackura
Just curious as to what all of you think should happen to the millions of people who are not as gifted, intelligent, talented, healthy, or lucky as we who drive our expensive SUVs, post digital pictures on this site of our beautiful dream homes and all the latest gadgetry and bling? Should we just let them starve to death because their circumstances are different than ours? Perhaps poverty and adversity has not touched us in our lifetimes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, does it?
Honestly, I can see the points you are making and do agree to some extent, and always have. There certainly are bad people out there who milk the system and they need to be cut off.
Sometimes though. I think our sentiments from high above the fray need to be balanced with having compassion and helping those less fortunate. Not everybody is capable of overcoming their adversity. Who should provide for them? If not you, the fortunate, than who?
Your thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
I agree with what you are saying, but there is a difference between drive and intelligence... there are a lot of jobs that pay above minimum wage, and are well above the poverty level. Will these people be buying acuras and nice big houses? Probably not, but that isn't a right, it is a privledge. |
|
|
| keremoner |
Answer I believe is no, you do not let the truly needy starve to death. If they have such ailments that they simply cannot help themselves, state takes care of them. That said, the number of those people is very small. Poverty as it is associated with the vast majority is due to lack of drive or motivation to do something more by putting an effort towards it. If the state has made it possible for them to get a trade or educated via public schools, grants, loans, etc., there is absolutely NO excuse in my book. I am advocating teaching them to fisn, not handing them the fish !! If after you do your part, they still don't get of their rear ends, then I have zero sympathy for them.
quote:
Originally posted by Blackura
Just curious as to what all of you think should happen to the millions of people who are not as gifted, intelligent, talented, healthy, or lucky as we who drive our expensive SUVs, post digital pictures on this site of our beautiful dream homes and all the latest gadgetry and bling? Should we just let them starve to death because their circumstances are different than ours? Perhaps poverty and adversity has not touched us in our lifetimes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, does it?
Honestly, I can see the points you are making and do agree to some extent, and always have. There certainly are bad people out there who milk the system and they need to be cut off.
Sometimes though. I think our sentiments from high above the fray need to be balanced with having compassion and helping those less fo | | | |
