| craniotes |
quote:
Originally posted by ExRiGuy
Am I the only one to notice that the main thread listing page on this forum is littered with quality complaints?:
Pulls right
Check airbag light
Wind noise
Sunroof leaks
Swirl marks
DVD ejecting
And of course, the vernerable "thumps and clunks" thread is not even on the page.
And you are mocking the quality of the Buick?
While I see where you're going with this, it's been my experience that most forums of this nature deal more with the negatives than the positives. The simple fact is that most folks who are satisfied with their vehicles (or PDAs, or watches -- the other boards I frequent) don't bother adding their $0.02 to the posts that deal with problems they don't have. The value of sites like these, IMO, is that they offer an alternative to the dealership when trying to diagnose issues, which is a terrific service if you ask me, but I try and take the bellyaching with a grain of salt. Until I read the post that reads "My MDX blew up with me in it", I'm going to regard it as a reliable, sturdy vehicle.
Now, let's take a look at your list, shall we?
- Pulls right: Mine doesn't do this, but if it did, I'd be glad to see this post, since I'd know to tell my dealer to roadforce balance the wheels, which would probably fix the problem
- Check airbag light: First time I've seen this - probably an isolated issue, but if it isn't, let's see what sort of resolution the owner receives
- Wind noise: Thanks to this post, I know to inform my dealer to replace the blower assembly. I haven't noticed this phenomenon with my X, but then I rarely drive with the recirulation button on.
- Sunroof leak: Not too keen on reading about this one, but I'll find out if I have this problem soon enough. No fix as of yet, but enough folks band together, there's bound to be one
- Swirl marks: You're kidding, right? Even $1.5 million dollar Bugattis have this problem. Bottom line, it's not a defect.
- DVD Ejecting: Again, mine doesn't do this, but it's good to know that there's a software update that fixes the problem.
- Thumps and clunks: Um, nope. None here, but you should hear the creaking on my E420 when I release the brakes from a standstill. Did it a 140 miles, still does it at 140,000 miles -- does it mean I bought a lemon?
No car is perfect. Not one. In my 34 years on this planet I've owned an Acura Integra, a Taurus SHO, a Mercedes E420, and a Honda Accord and each one had their individual quirks. Heck, my dad paid a lot more than anyone here did on their Xs for his 560 SEL, 600 SEL, and S600, and man, you should see some of the issues that cropped up with those babies (well, except for the 560 -- that thing was bomb-proof). That said, they were all fantastic cars in their own right, just not perfect.
Regards,
Adam
PS - And once more for the record, I think the Enclave is a great car, and certainly one worth cross-shopping with the MDX. It came up wanting my my case, but for those looking for more space than the X offers, and who don't mind giving up some handling and style (IMO), it's a solid choice. Now I'm going to go and don the Nomex... |
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| ductman |
quote:
Originally posted by ExRiGuy
"Do you know the average age of Bucik owners is 60+ ???"
I am 35, average Enclave buyer is 41
"Basically you can profile a GM or a Buick owner very quickly."
Sure, if you want to hide from reality.
"Someone collecting their Social security"
Not yet, thanks.
"Old school"
A little. And proud of it.
"Probably doesn't have a passport ( never went out of the country)"
I guaranty you my passport has more stamps on it that yours.
"worked Blue collar jobs"
I am an Ivy eductated Washington attorney with one of top 10 most prestigious law firms in the world.
"Think computer is a magic box and buy computers in Dell kiosk or from shopNBC TV channel"
I know a lot of older folks who can build PC's, never mind operate them.
"Can't locate iraq on world map.
Etc etc."
I'd be willing to bet more Buick owners can find Iraq than many Japanese import brands (save perhaps Lexus and Acura).
Being a follower means paying $40k for an invisible if not outright homely Highlander because of the Toyota badge and then looking the other way when it gives you trouble. It means telling your friends you like the dash on your new Civic (when if that were in an American car it would be hated).
As to quality, jury is out, agreed, but the stuff built by Detroit in the last 3 years is much better than it was 5 and 10 years ago and is on par with most of the imports, be they European or elsewhere.
I actually feel great about buying an American made car and having done so on the merits. Hearing some of the comments on this board makes me feel even better about it -- because I fear that I too was getting brainwashed by the "crowd."
I always get a chuckle from people who list their " accomplishments, just a sign of insecurity, by the way did the Enclave come with a bottle of geritol and prune juice, Gm incentive?
:2: :2: :2: :2: :2: |
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| Axiama |
quote:
Originally posted by LionSpeed
I'm wondering if Axiama & ExRiGuy are related?
:26:
:rolleyes: |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by ExRiGuy
"Do you know the average age of Bucik owners is 60+ ???"
I am 35, average Enclave buyer is 41
"
Everything I can find states that the average age of the Enclave buyer is 55. Here is a recent article that discusses the average age of all Buick models: Link. |
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| BLEXV6 |
quote:
Originally posted by ExRiGuy
"Do you know the average age of Bucik owners is 60+ ???"
I am 35, average Enclave buyer is 41
"Basically you can profile a GM or a Buick owner very quickly."
Sure, if you want to hide from reality.
"Someone collecting their Social security"
Not yet, thanks.
"Old school"
A little. And proud of it.
"Probably doesn't have a passport ( never went out of the country)"
I guaranty you my passport has more stamps on it that yours.
"worked Blue collar jobs"
I am an Ivy eductated Washington attorney with one of top 10 most prestigious law firms in the world.
"Think computer is a magic box and buy computers in Dell kiosk or from shopNBC TV channel"
I know a lot of older folks who can build PC's, never mind operate them.
"Can't locate iraq on world map.
Etc etc."
I'd be willing to bet more Buick owners can find Iraq than many Japanese import brands (save perhaps Lexus and Acura).
Being a follower means paying $40k for an invisible if not outright homely Highlander because of the Toyota badge and then looking the other way when it gives you trouble. It means telling your friends you like the dash on your new Civic (when if that were in an American car it would be hated).
As to quality, jury is out, agreed, but the stuff built by Detroit in the last 3 years is much better than it was 5 and 10 years ago and is on par with most of the imports, be they European or elsewhere.
I actually feel great about buying an American made car and having done so on the merits. Hearing some of the comments on this board makes me feel even better about it -- because I fear that I too was getting brainwashed by the "crowd."
Love the Civic comment. Nothing could be truer, and as a result I recommended to my son to get a Mazda3. |
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| Hockeyfox |
| Good call. I purchased an Mazda 3 for my son over the Civic as well. |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by dfc101a
Not a Buick enthusiast, but am a Buick owner. Bring it on. If the bullets are real facts, I like my chances. :1:
I have "learned" quite a bit today. Acura spent a lot of money on a ground up platform for only the MDX, the Tundra launch is a raging success with the major engine recalls, and CR is the end all be all vehicle quality source. Of course, I might be guilty of selectively picking out some comments from the less informed.
This thread sure did turn into the roman coliseum in a hurry, but it is a fun read.
Love the Guinness beer, but as I am over 80, the beer just runs right through me, I p!ss in my depends, and pass out after chugging one pint.
Well, you really need to provide facts for anyone to take anything you say seriously. All I can find on a recall of the new Tundra's engine is the fact that 20 camshafts have failed due to a manufacturing casting defect (.06% of total engines) in which Toyota is replacing the ENTIRE engine for customers affected. I can't find an actual recall. Meanwhile sales are up 60% over the previous year. Also, what source of long term reliability data do you find superior? Please inform us with links to support your version of the facts. |
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| ExRiGuy |
quote:
Originally posted by ductman
I always get a chuckle from people who list their " accomplishments, just a sign of insecurity, by the way did the Enclave come with a bottle of geritol and prune juice, Gm incentive?
:2: :2: :2: :2: :2:
Insecure? More like an in your face for not so subtly demeaning blue collar folks. I come from nothing, blue collar background, and the statement as a whole as presented was insulting, no matter where it allegedly came from.
As to the average age of the Enclave buyer, I did see it somewhere (I think it might have been the WSJ, but not sure) and also had 2 dealers say the same thing -- though one said 42. It's out there somewhere and probably changes each month -- for the lower. |
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| gmc74 |
geeze, I get on a plane to the pacific northwest, and the sh!t hits the fan... can't you girls play nice?
:)
I think I am going to go next door for a few pints of guinness now, thanks to whom ever posted that picture.
And to ExRiGuy, I guess they didn't teach you a heck of a lot about reading comprehension at the "Ivy" school you went to. No one here believes that it is from Japan or it is crap, my MDX is from Canada. We have been discussing the title of this thread, MDX v Enclave, and as expected on the Acura MDX forum, we don't agree with you. Stop crying like a baby, and posting as a 32 year old woman, and go to the Buick lovefest on their site. |
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| dfc101a |
quote:
Originally posted by JL_SS
Everything I can find states that the average age of the Enclave buyer is 55. Here is a recent article that discusses the average age of all Buick models: Link.
First, I must say an average of 41 never seemed right to me. Lexus is the Buick target for the most part, and 55 does not surprise me and would be inline with Lexus.
But, you really go to great pains to pull up old articles. There is this new, hip search engine called google. Just type in "Buick Enclave Average Age" and the second link "KickingTires: Buick Enclave in Short Supply" comes up --
KickingTires: Buick Enclave in Short Supply
Same Chicago Trib author, just more up to date. The average age has already dropped a few years over the summer and is likely trending that way. Have a read and enjoy that hip, new serach engine. |
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| ductman |
quote:
Originally posted by ExRiGuy
Insecure? More like an in your face for not so subtly demeaning blue collar folks. I come from nothing, blue collar background, and the statement as a whole as presented was insulting, no matter where it allegedly came from.
As to the average age of the Enclave buyer, I did see it somewhere (I think it might have been the WSJ, but not sure) and also had 2 dealers say the same thing -- though one said 42. It's out there somewhere and probably changes each month -- for the lower.
I am not demeaning anybody, but someone who has to state that he has
1. Ivy league education
2. Works as an attorney at a prestigious law firm
I do not think anybody cares about your accomplishments or mine
for that matter, lighten up, stop acting like the average age of a
Buick owner, with the above comments, what reply did you expect?
:crying: |
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| dfc101a |
quote:
Originally posted by JL_SS
Well, you really need to provide facts for anyone to take anything you say seriously. All I can find on a recall of the new Tundra's engine is the fact that 20 camshafts have failed due to a manufacturing casting defect (.06% of total engines) in which Toyota is replacing the ENTIRE engine for customers affected. I can't find an actual recall. Meanwhile sales are up 60% over the previous year. Also, what source of long term reliability data do you find superior? Please inform us with links to support your version of the facts.
I use many sources. This site is a great source. CR is a good source if you understand their methodology and sources. JD Power is a good source that relies on sample size and probabilities. A little more challenging but sometimes can be found, warranty pay out claims by model and year can provide visibility into how problematic a brand-model-year is (have found mainly in auto journalist articles).
There are many sources. But I do not pick solely one that just happens to best support my case. You on the other hand choose CR but conveniently discard JD Power. |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by dfc101a
First, I must say an average of 41 never seemed right to me. Lexus is the Buick target for the most part, and 55 does not surprise me and would be inline with Lexus.
But, you really go to great pains to pull up old articles. There is this new, hip search engine called google. Just type in "Buick Enclave Average Age" and the second link "KickingTires: Buick Enclave in Short Supply" comes up --
KickingTires: Buick Enclave in Short Supply
Same Chicago Trib author, just more up to date. The average age has already dropped a few years over the summer and is likely trending that way. Have a read and enjoy that hip, new serach engine.
I did come across the article you referenced but chose to link the more comprehensive article. One states 53 and one states 55 but the data comes from different sources so it does not automatically imply that the age has been falling. As soon as you have a real arguement without resorting to insults, let us know....... |
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| ExRiGuy |
Folks, nothing more can be gained from this thread.
I initiated this thread as an objective FYI and I still hope there are some folks who come across this site and are able to take something from it. I am surprised by many of the responses I have seen, but in the end I could truly care less. I fight all day and have no desire to do it for sport / leisure.
I regret responding to the low-brow insults and I will edit or delete my posts to reflect that fact. I wish you all the best and truly hope we all get what we paid for with the MDX. |
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| JL_SS |
quote:
Originally posted by dfc101a
I use many sources. This site is a great source. CR is a good source if you understand their methodology and sources. JD Power is a good source that relies on sample size and probabilities. A little more challenging but sometimes can be found, warranty pay out claims by model and year can provide visibility into how problematic a brand-model-year is (have found mainly in auto journalist articles).
There are many sources. But I do not pick solely one that just happens to best support my case. You on the other hand choose CR but conveniently discard JD Power.
I agree that the other sources can be helpful. However I do not choose CR because it supports my case. I choose it because it has reflected my actual experience with vehicles as well as my family members and friends experiences, and most auto sites that I have been on. JD Power has not and has a lot smaller sample to draw data from as I posted earlier. I have filled out both CR and JD Power surveys and the CR survey was much more comprehensive. |
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| hipcheck |
Has this thread ever taken off since my reply a fee days ago. Maybe we can get back to the cars and companies.
I do not see the Enclave/Outlook/Acadia as MDX competitors. The GM trio are much larger. My MDX feels more car like than my Outlook did because of the size.
Now to add fuel to the fire. This new trio of SUVs shows everything that is still wrong with GM. In other words, Badge Engineering and eventually overproduction.
The Chrysler 300 was hot at one time. To answer that Chrysler ramped up production and once the initial excitement wore off, sales fell and 300s were offering rebates. GM needs to learn that demand is a good thing and keeping inventory where prices stay strong is a good thing. GM just added a third shift for these and I'll bet that quality will suffer.
GM also needs to reduce the nameplates. The Enclare is a decent SUV, but there should really only be an Acadia and Enclave. Think Pilot and MDX. They could have trim levels for each, but having different sheet medal, interiors, accessories is silly and not cost effective. GM is adding a Chevy model that will be built in Tennessee and I'll bet a Caddy will follow. Meanwhile Honda and Toyota will continue to have lower development and production costs due to less choices/options.
My former Outlook was a respectable SUV. Better than most everything else out there in it's class. Read my earlier post for my thoughts on it. |
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| dfc101a |
quote:
Originally posted by JL_SS
I did come across the article you referenced but chose to link the more comprehensive article. One states 53 and one states 55 but the data comes from different sources so it does not automatically imply that the age has been falling. As soon as you have a real arguement without resorting to insults, let us know.......
No insult. Playful sarcasm, yes. No reason for insults. Apologies - it does read that way.
I had no doubt you found the kickingtires article, but I did find it intersting that you went with a more dated piece from the same author -- Jim Mateja. He wrote both. The article you posted was back in May and definitely has the old man, dire straits Buick angle plus a 2 year older average age for the Enclave. The Enclave had only been out a few weeks at that point.
The kickingtires article was from August and has a more positive tone. I do believe the average age has been declining as more non-traditional GM customers give the Buick a look. |
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| dfc101a |
quote:
Originally posted by JL_SS
I agree that the other sources can be helpful. However I do not choose CR because it supports my case. I choose it because it has reflected my actual experience with vehicles as well as my family members and friends experiences, and most auto sites that I have been on. JD Power has not and has a lot smaller sample to draw data from as I posted earlier. I have filled out both CR and JD Power surveys and the CR survey was much more comprehensive.
We can agree. If CR backs your experience, then go with it. Just seemed like other sources were being minimized.
One other site I enjoy is autonews.com. Great industry insider info, but I refuse to pay the $100+ a year subscription to feed this hobby/addiction. Some of the articles show up on their sister site autoweek.com, but not the good insider ones. They have a free trial week every so often - give it a try. |
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| Axiama |
quote:
Originally posted by hipcheck
Now to add fuel to the fire. This new trio of SUVs shows everything that is still wrong with GM. In other words, Badge Engineering and eventually overproduction.
eventual overproduction? Maybe it would be better to post this eventually. Should the event actually occur. |
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| dfc101a |
quote:
Originally posted by hipcheck
Now to add fuel to the fire. This new trio of SUVs shows everything that is still wrong with GM. In other words, Badge Engineering and eventually overproduction.
GM just added a third shift for these and I'll bet that quality will suffer.
GM also needs to reduce the nameplates. The Enclare is a decent SUV, but there should really only be an Acadia and Enclave. Think Pilot and MDX. They could have trim levels for each, but having different sheet medal, interiors, accessories is silly and not cost effective. GM is adding a Chevy model that will be built in Tennessee and I'll bet a Caddy will follow. Meanwhile Honda and Toyota will continue to have lower development and production costs due to less choices/options.
The third shift ramp up is necessary due to demand, and the annual volume with the Lansing plant is still only in the 220k units range. The growing crossover market can support that and GM has no competition in the large crossover niche. Also, the trio replaced SUV's and minivans in GM's lineup so the volume is there.
I agree too many nameplates is trouble. For the number of brands and target customers, three versions was OK. Four will be too much and water them down. The Outlook should have been a Chevy from the start. Spy pics of the Chevy look like the Outlook front end with the bow tie. |
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| zman |
As an Enclave owner I'll chime in here.
We picked the Enclave for several reasons, which were the important reasons TO US. We were not looking for a sporty ride. I have another vehicle that fits that need. The benefits as we saw them:
Styling (subjective) - my wife hates the front end of the MDX
Second row captains chairs - they are comfortable and allow easy access to the third row
Sliding second row - you can slide them back when no one is in the third row or slide them forward when the third row is needed
The smaller third row of the MDX - we actually use our third row and I think we would have tired of the MDX
Only being able to enter the third row from the passenger side of the MDX
The Enclave is as quiet a vehicle as I have ever ridden in.
Is the Enclave as quick and sporty - God no. But we don't care.
As someone stated earlier, the Enclave is quite a bit bigger, which is what we wanted. If we didn't want the space we would have given the MDX more consideration.
By the way, I am 42.
Peace. |
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by hipcheck
Has this thread ever taken off since my reply a fee days ago. Maybe we can get back to the cars and companies.
I do not see the Enclave/Outlook/Acadia as MDX competitors. The GM trio are much larger. My MDX feels more car like than my Outlook did because of the size.
Now to add fuel to the fire. This new trio of SUVs shows everything that is still wrong with GM. In other words, Badge Engineering and eventually overproduction.
The Chrysler 300 was hot at one time. To answer that Chrysler ramped up production and once the initial excitement wore off, sales fell and 300s were offering rebates. GM needs to learn that demand is a good thing and keeping inventory where prices stay strong is a good thing. GM just added a third shift for these and I'll bet that quality will suffer.
GM also needs to reduce the nameplates. The Enclare is a decent SUV, but there should really only be an Acadia and Enclave. Think Pilot and MDX. They could have trim levels for each, but having different sheet medal, interiors, accessories is silly and not cost effective. GM is adding a Chevy model that will be built in Tennessee and I'll bet a Caddy will follow. Meanwhile Honda and Toyota will continue to have lower development and production costs due to less choices/options.
My former Outlook was a respectable SUV. Better than most everything else out there in it's class. Read my earlier post for my thoughts on it.
Nicely said, spell check needed, but nicely said :)
Both of the recent imports I purchased had one thing in common, option packages. You can't screw a car up if it only comes in 3 or 4 flavors, the big 3 could learn from this.
Go to edmunds.com and look at the pricing for an MDX and an Enclave. If you pick an MDX Sport for example, the list of available options is 0. If you pick an Enclave CXL, there are over 20.
Usually I would say that options are great, no one wants to be force fed something. In a car however, the best thing that can be done is to produce as few variations as possible. Build time is faster and more accurate, and with that the profit for the company goes up, which leads to less corner cutting. |
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| Axiama |
| Ok, well, I'd like to apologize for that now... :) |
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| TurboFatCrab |
ccaats,
Are you Ann Coulter? |
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| ductman |
quote:
Originally posted by ccaats
WOW, I didn't believe it when Exriguy told us that this was the "hottest forum on the MDX" site....but it is obviously true. I am another one of those pesky, geriatric (37 years old), uneducated (mechanical engineering degree), blue collar (sales engineer) Buick Enclave owners! I am amazed at some of the hate and venom on this site and am SO GLAD to not be affiliated with sad, immature (meaning character traits befitting a spoiled brat) and downright hateful people as some of you are on here. I am amazed at the overall lower level of decency, integrity and class by some of you on this site compared to our Enclave forum. The very fact that there is an icon saying FU available on this site speaks VOLUMES about the class and integrity of some of those here. And let me just say this......a society that denigrates, despises, makes fun of and generally "tosses off" their elders is VERY ignorant, classless, morally decrepit and despicable. You who claim to LOVE the Japanese vehicles so much could well learn a lesson from THEIR society where elders are held in VERY high regard and to denigrate them as stupid, ignorant or otherwise is held in EXTREME contempt! The attitudes of some of you here to declare a person as a "loser", not befitting of your "country club" or "peer group", "laughable", "uneducated" etc is very reminiscent of another group of people in history. Ever heard of the KKK or the NAZIS? I am really ashamed that some of you people call yourselves members of the "civilized human race".....much less American citizens. You really ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
LIGTHEN UP, BY THE WAY I NEED TO LIST ONE OF MY ACCOMPLISHMENTS:
i HAVE MANAGED TO SAVE MONEY BY PURCHASING 2 PLY TOILET PAPER AND SEPEARATING THE PLYS TO MAKE 2 ROLLS FROM ONE ROLL, HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT! |
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| cvista |
| The Enclave Mini Van is the best Mini Van in GM lineup. Anybody agree ?? |
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| m500 |
I held back long enough to post in this thread. Just my 2 cents that isn't the big 3 mostly produce their vehicle out side of US. If we are talking about buying American made cars now this would apply to Toyota and Honda. They build more cars here in US then the big 3 supposedly. So, are we obsessed over the brand or where its actually build? How is one to justified buy American now? Even my last SUV MB ML500 is build by American and what a disappointment my ML500 turn out to be.
BTW, I agree that MB 560SEL is build like a tank to almost fault proof. Its still my favorite vehicle. |
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| phins2rt |
quote:
Originally posted by cvista
The Enclave Mini Van is the best Mini Van in GM lineup. Anybody agree ??
I would agree. It sounds very much like a mini van setup with the second row. Only being able to seat two in the second row would be a definite turn off for me. |
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by zman
As an Enclave owner I'll chime in here.
We picked the Enclave for several reasons, which were the important reasons TO US. We were not looking for a sporty ride. I have another vehicle that fits that need. The benefits as we saw them:
Styling (subjective) - my wife hates the front end of the MDX
Second row captains chairs - they are comfortable and allow easy access to the third row
Sliding second row - you can slide them back when no one is in the third row or slide them forward when the third row is needed
The smaller third row of the MDX - we actually use our third row and I think we would have tired of the MDX
Only being able to enter the third row from the passenger side of the MDX
The Enclave is as quiet a vehicle as I have ever ridden in.
Is the Enclave as quick and sporty - God no. But we don't care.
As someone stated earlier, the Enclave is quite a bit bigger, which is what we wanted. If we didn't want the space we would have given the MDX more consideration.
By the way, I am 42.
Peace.
It looks like the car meets your needs, and that is great. Different strokes for different folks. |
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| Parker |
Wow, these Enclave guys might be in their 30's but they are a serious and grumpy as an old man can be. Must be fun at parties when the BS starts.
Nazism? KKK? |
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by Parker
Wow, these Enclave guys might be in their 30's but they are a serious and grumpy as an old man can be. Must be fun at parties when the BS starts.
Nazism? KKK?
Good times had by all, I'm sure ;) |
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| Axiama |
quote:
Originally posted by cvista
The Enclave Mini Van is the best Mini Van in GM lineup. Anybody agree ??
I hadn't really thought about it before but you have an excellent point. GM managed to build a minivan that's more stylish than the MDX. :2:
Just kidding. Acura won the crossover segment for many years. Competition is always a good thing. |
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| craniotes |
This is seriously starting to crack me up now... Why is it so difficult to accept that both the Enclave and the MDX are terrific CUVs for their intended missions in life? One is a great family hauler with smooth-as-glass ride and so-so driving dynamics; while the other is a decent family hauler with a harsher ride and stellar driving dynamics. If you shrink the the Enclave, beef up the engine and suspension, you wind up with an MDX, whereas if you enlarge the MDX and soften its hard edges you wind up with an Enclave.
As has been said ad nauseam: Different strokes for different folks. I wanted an invigorating ride that could hold my wife, 8-month-old son and attendant gear for weekends in the country, as well as handle a nasty New England winter or two. The third row is great for when my wife's sister's family comes along for the ride, and for when my son gets older and his little brother or sister arrive on the scene, but I certainly don't need to transport teenagers or adults back there. Yet. However, by the time I'm ready to unload the MDX, something like the Enclave is probably going to be where I'm headed. For those that are already at that point in their lives, the Enclave is here today.
Regards,
Adam
PS - And yes, the Mercedes-Benz 560 SEL stands as one of the toughest, most reliable cars of all time (my father's lasted for 11 years and 200K miles with no problems whatsoever). Interesting that it sufficed just fine as a family car (two adults, two lanky teens, and two cats) without a third-row of seats, captain's chairs, roof rack, DVD entertainment system, GPS-navigation, all-wheel drive, stability control, LATCH system... I think we're all getting a bit spoiled here... |
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| zman |
quote:
Originally posted by gmc74
It looks like the car meets your needs, and that is great. Different strokes for different folks.
Exactly. We love it and at the end of the day that is all that should matter.
What makes some others bristle is the condenscending, dismissive tone of some people towards domestic makes. I do not have that attitude, but I did have to come to terms with buying a Buick. I will freely admit that. |
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| Axiama |
quote:
Originally posted by m500
I held back long enough to post in this thread. Just my 2 cents that isn't the big 3 mostly produce their vehicle out side of US. If we are talking about buying American made cars now this would apply to Toyota and Honda. They build more cars here in US then the big 3 supposedly. So, are we obsessed over the brand or where its actually build? How is one to justified buy American now? Even my last SUV MB ML500 is build by American and what a disappointment my ML500 turn out to be.
This is at least the third post on this thread that alludes to foreign automakers building more cars in America and employing more Americans than the big three. It seems to me that there is lots of confusion in this regard. Here are some highlights from the attached article:
http://www.detroitbuildingtrades.or.../may262006.html
A Center for Automotive Research study sponsored by foreign automakers found that 8 out of 10 foreign automaker jobs based here are in sales - not assembly lines, research labs and headquarters. "Dealer jobs can pay well, but America cannot compete in a global economy by selling cars," Doyle said. "It must compete by designing and building the next generation of them."
Deciding between a Honda and a Ford? Ford employs about four times more Americans than Honda. GM operates 23 plants to Honda's eight.
One way to judge degrees of "made in America" is to look at "domestic content" - the percentage of a car's parts that were produced in the U.S. and Canada. Automakers report this information to the U.S. government each year. Domestic content varies from brand to brand and vehicle to vehicle.
The window sticker on my Enclave states that it has 77% domestic content. Now, when I make a decision to buy a car I base that decision on the car itself not on the “made in America” badge. But with so many presenting the “foreign automakers build in the U.S." argument it seems like some facts were needed. Yes, the big three produce cars on foreing soil and the imports build cars in America. However, there are many other factors to consider when deciding if a car is "American made." |
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| Fabvsix |
I'd jump in line to buy a Japanese made Honda ANY DAY over an American made Honda!
I'm 47, born and raised in America (caucasian 100%) and have NEVER bought an american branded auto ! I just can't get over the plastic cheap interiors and loss in value when you drive it off the lot!
My father who is 78 buys only Japanese since buying his last 1964 mustang! WE are not alone.......good luck with at Buick! :1: :1:
I do buy American hand made Lucchese boots made with 3 generation american texans with only the finest materials.......that is the exception. Would I buy boots made in Mexico? NO! |
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| Parker |
They must have a lot of salesmen if it is 8 out of 10, either that or all of their plants are automated. Think about that, just salesmen are 8 out of 10, my Acura dealer has three to four times as many other personnel at the dealership than salesmen. Maybe they mean people that work at the dealership versus plant workers, but 8 out 10, something isn't right.
Check out the USA Today article, there are a lot of numbers out there and a lot of confusion. Even the article seems a little bit confused. When citing Honda's 60% domestic figure, the article adds that the big 3 are 77% Canada and United States, but what is the real number for just the United States. Or what about when they cite that Detroit Automakers hire 2.5 more people than Toyota, well how does that stack up to all foreign?
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos...ican-usat_N.htm
Really though, our government, with the help of big business, sold us out a long time ago. |
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| Axiama |
I would guess that the 8 of 10 number includes all dealership jobs (not just sales). And that makes sense to me. Let’s say a factory employs 1,000 workers for example. Well if 40 dealerships employ 25 people each – there’s your 1,000 workers. So, 8/10 seems like it could be right.
As for the USA Today article, it seems that the writer wanted to convey the confusion that consumers have with the foreign/domestic debate. Mission accomplished. One thing I noticed at the end of the article was a quote from someone at levelfieldinstitute.org and that website seems to have clear information which is consistent with what I presented earlier.
Finally, as far as I know the US and Canada have always been separate nations. Why they lump them together and call them “domestic” is beyond me. |
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| Parker |
quote:
Originally posted by Axiama
I would guess that the 8 of 10 number includes all dealership jobs (not just sales). And that makes sense to me. Let’s say a factory employs 1,000 workers for example. Well if 40 dealerships employ 25 people each – there’s your 1,000 workers. So, 8/10 seems like it could be right.
As for the USA Today article, it seems that the writer wanted to convey the confusion that consumers have with the foreign/domestic debate. Mission accomplished. One thing I noticed at the end of the article was a quote from someone at levelfieldinstitute.org and that website seems to have clear information which is consistent with what I presented earlier.
Finally, as far as I know the US and Canada have always been separate nations. Why they lump them together and call them “domestic” is beyond me.
That seems pretty fair. Your 8 out of 10 in your example is a ratio of 1:1, but I get your point. |
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| Axiama |
quote:
Originally posted by Fabvsix
I'd jump in line to buy a Japanese made Honda ANY DAY over an American made Honda!
I'm 47, born and raised in America (caucasian 100%) and have NEVER bought an american branded auto ! I just can't get over the plastic cheap interiors and loss in value when you drive it off the lot!
My father who is 78 buys only Japanese since buying his last 1964 mustang! WE are not alone.......good luck with at Buick! :1: :1:
I do buy American hand made Lucchese boots made with 3 generation american texans with only the finest materials.......that is the exception. Would I buy boots made in Mexico? NO!
I would have let this go because your ignorance pretty much speaks for itself. However, you are calling yourself a Ragun Cajun Gumbo Man living in San Francisco buying Lucchese boots. :crazyeye:
Oh, nevermind, you're obviously going through some sort of identity crisis which is making you irrational. I'll just let it go even though your proud anti-American sentiment makes the rest of us Cajuns look bad. |
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| phins2rt |
quote:
Originally posted by Axiama
I would guess that the 8 of 10 number includes all dealership jobs (not just sales). And that makes sense to me. Let’s say a factory employs 1,000 workers for example. Well if 40 dealerships employ 25 people each – there’s your 1,000 workers. So, 8/10 seems like it could be right.
I think your math is a bit off. If you had 1000 employees total, 800 of them would be in sales. If you had 1000 factory employees you would need to have 4000 employees in sales for the ratio to be 8 out of 10 are in sales. I think that's right anyway. That ratio seems a bit out of whack to me. |
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| Axiama |
| Thank you for the math lesson. It was meant as an illustration of how quickly dealerships nationwide could offset a few plants with high numbers of employees. Sheesh. |
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| cvista |
| Why would anyone buy a POS like Enclave minivan which is worth 50% less after 6 months. |
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| phins2rt |
quote:
Originally posted by Axiama
Thank you for the math lesson.
No problem!:D |
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| dj-mdx2 |
So when did this thread degenerate into Foreign versus Domestic?
Never mind - it's just the way forum members here are, ricers and geezers alike. ;) |
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| dfc101a |
quote:
Originally posted by cvista
“Why would anyone buy a POS like Enclave minivan which is worth 50% less after 6 months.”
“MDX is designed from ground up. It took them a lot of time. A lot of research/testing and effort went into this.”
“Basically you can profile a GM or a Buick owner very quickly. Someone collecting their Social security.”
“I'm sorry, but If I buy a GM, all my friends will laugh at me.”
“Picked up today. Tech package. 300 below invoice. Great car. Yes, I never did a test drive before buying. !!. That tells you how good the car is and the benefits of internet/forums.”
“You can get mdx for below invoice now. If you wait for long, you might not get the color you want and the 2.99/4.99 APR that's on MDX now. The APR and the price difference combination could very well be around $4000 between 07 and 08 !!”
“Hyundai and Mazda ??. Come on, u can't be serious. I wouldn't buy a hyundai/mazda for 15K less. They might look good from outside but there is nothing inside that u can compare with an Acura.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
“MDX Owners - How much do you EARN !!!
I was wondering what is the typical profile of people/families who buy/own new MDX.
I'm considering a 07 MDX and started rethinking the decision to buy a luxury SUV.
Can you guys do me a favor and post the following details and help me make a decision.
Age:
Annual Income:
Kids y/n:
Location
Here is mine
35
165,000 ( Wife doesn't work)
1 kid
East Coast
Can't afford a house yet in EastCoast
I have gotten too much advice to buy a Pilot or a Highlander”
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“I think most of us are posting anonymous.”
The "MDX Owners - How much do you EARN !!!" thread was about as much fun to read as this one has been. I feel for the regulars here. The comments speak for themselves. |
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| coulomberic |
Before buying the MDX, I was dreaming of the Acadia, same thing as the Enclave. When I showed up at the dealership for test drive, they cancelled on me because of an electrical problem. WHAT?
The next day, after the road test, my dream was over. Could not stand the confused transmission on the Acadia and the lack of power (there are long and steep hills everywhere we go in this town).
My only regret with the MDX is that it is built in America, Ontario, Canada more precisely, by most likely people laid off by the big 3. This probably explains the oddities in quality that were unseen before on an Acura:
- Color mismatch (bumpers vs rest of body, Aspen white)
- Less than perfect body panels adjustment
- Gas panel uneven with body
- Dash panels misalignment
- Loose fasteners found under seat at delivery
- rattling at 5,000 miles or less
However, i prefer by far a less than perfect Acura over a flashy Buick that will spend more time in the shop than on the road. |
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by zman
Exactly. We love it and at the end of the day that is all that should matter.
What makes some others bristle is the condenscending, dismissive tone of some people towards domestic makes. I do not have that attitude, but I did have to come to terms with buying a Buick. I will freely admit that.
I can see how it can be tough to come to grips with the Buick idea. A few years back, when I bought my 04 Maxima, I was seriously considering the CTS, but it was hard to come to grips with owning a caddy... that isn't the reason I didn't buy it, but it did weigh on my mind a bit.
That being said, the Maxima had one of the worst "fit and finish" of any car I have ever owned. Yes, it was a first year (first 3 weeks of the first model year actually) remodel, and it had the issues to go with it, but the materials seemed to fall apart over time.
Our Ford Thunderbird is solid as a rock though, it has no rattles, no issues at all. I am not crazy about the somewhat generic stereo and console, but it meets our needs. I know that someone labeled me as an import lemming, but this is definitely not true.
Now go take your geritol and enjoy your Buick, oh, and say hi to my grandmother at the old folks home (this was humor for those that it is lost on) :2: |
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by Axiama
This is at least the third post on this thread that alludes to foreign automakers building more cars in America and employing more Americans than the big three. It seems to me that there is lots of confusion in this regard. Here are some highlights from the attached article:
http://www.detroitbuildingtrades.or.../may262006.html
A Center for Automotive Research study sponsored by foreign automakers found that 8 out of 10 foreign automaker jobs based here are in sales - not assembly lines, research labs and headquarters. "Dealer jobs can pay well, but America cannot compete in a global economy by selling cars," Doyle said. "It must compete by designing and building the next generation of them."
Deciding between a Honda and a Ford? Ford employs about four times more Americans than Honda. GM operates 23 plants to Honda's eight.
One way to judge degrees of "made in America" is to look at "domestic content" - the percentage of a car's parts that were produced in the U.S. and Canada. Automakers report this information to the U.S. government each year. Domestic content varies from brand to brand and vehicle to vehicle.
The window sticker on my Enclave states that it has 77% domestic content. Now, when I make a decision to buy a car I base that decision on the car itself not on the “made in America” badge. But with so many presenting the “foreign automakers build in the U.S." argument it seems like some facts were needed. Yes, the big three produce cars on foreing soil and the imports build cars in America. However, there are many other factors to consider when deciding if a car is "American made."
I have a very different view on this. First, linking to that site to support your claim, is like linking to the republican national committee's site to explain why they are better than democrats.
detroitbuildingtrades.org is hardly an unbiased third party.
That being said, one of the things they touted, seems to me to be one of the biggest problems with the big three -
If Ford, GM and Chrysler shrink to about 320,000 workers, and drop to the market share projected by Auto News last June, they will still employ about twice as many workers on a per car basis as Toyota. (About 33 cars per employee.) You can argue that some of this is due to comparative efficiencies, but a great deal of it has to do with where a company houses its researchers, its accountants, its engineers and designers.
So what they are saying, is that if the big three shrink, they will still be less efficient than Toyota? I am not sure why they tout this as being a benefit. I think it is great that they can put that many resources into a car, but considering their losses (this is a fact) and the lack of quality (this is my opinion) that doesn't bode well for them at all.
This wreaks of inneficiency, and I find it funny that the largely union based trade group considers this a benefit. |
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by Axiama
I would guess that the 8 of 10 number includes all dealership jobs (not just sales). And that makes sense to me. Let’s say a factory employs 1,000 workers for example. Well if 40 dealerships employ 25 people each – there’s your 1,000 workers. So, 8/10 seems like it could be right.
As for the USA Today article, it seems that the writer wanted to convey the confusion that consumers have with the foreign/domestic debate. Mission accomplished. One thing I noticed at the end of the article was a quote from someone at levelfieldinstitute.org and that website seems to have clear information which is consistent with what I presented earlier.
Finally, as far as I know the US and Canada have always been separate nations. Why they lump them together and call them “domestic” is beyond me.
I don't think they are referring to dealerships, since they are all "individually owned and operated", meaning they aren't owned by Acura/Honda. I think they are referring to the people that sell cars to dealerships, and the ones that sell dealerships.
Just a guess though.
Of course the information from the lobbying groups for the big three (levelfieldinstitute.org) is going to match the information from the detroit trade group, they are essentially the same. They are lobbying groups for US car companies, they are going to give you clear information about what they want you to know/believe. |
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by Axiama
Thank you for the math lesson. It was meant as an illustration of how quickly dealerships nationwide could offset a few plants with high numbers of employees. Sheesh.
I totally see where you were going on this.
I think she was giving you a small nuggest, there are a lot more than 40 dealerships in the country, compared to the small number of plants. Essentially, for every worker at a plant in the US, there are 4 at dealerships.
That is probably very true, but I don't believe the numbers in that story are reflecting on the dealerships, since they are not owned by Acura. If they are using those numbers, then the author should be ashamed of himself for spinning the numbers. |
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| Parker |
That was a good move not buying that CTS though gmc74. My Neice has a CTS, and it has been a total dog. Underpowered, trim falling off, way over priced for what she has gotten. She states that it is the worse car she has ever ridden in, and she has bought nothing but domestic.
One of the most annoying things about the car though, which is probably just one of my pet peeves, but when you shut the car door it sounds like you are shutting the car door of a 1972 Olds Delta 88.
quote:
Originally posted by gmc74
I can see how it can be tough to come to grips with the Buick idea. A few years back, when I bought my 04 Maxima, I was seriously considering the CTS, but it was hard to come to grips with owning a caddy... that isn't the reason I didn't buy it, but it did weigh on my mind a bit.
That being said, the Maxima had one of the worst "fit and finish" of any car I have ever owned. Yes, it was a first year (first 3 weeks of the first model year actually) remodel, and it had the issues to go with it, but the materials seemed to fall apart over time.
Our Ford Thunderbird is solid as a rock though, it has no rattles, no issues at all. I am not crazy about the somewhat generic stereo and console, but it meets our needs. I know that someone labeled me as an import lemming, but this is definitely not true.
Now go take your geritol and enjoy your Buick, oh, and say hi to my grandmother at the old folks home (this was humor for those that it is lost on) :2:
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by Parker
That was a good move not buying that CTS though gmc74. My Neice has a CTS, and it has been a total dog. Underpowered, trim falling off, way over priced for what she has gotten. She states that it is the worse car she has ever ridden in, and she has bought nothing but domestic.
One of the most annoying things about the car though, which is probably just one of my pet peeves, but when you shut the car door it sounds like you are shutting the car door of a 1972 Olds Delta 88.
Yeah, the original one was definitely under powered, I wouldn't mind the CTS-V, but I don't see my self paying 50K for it.
I didn't get it mainly because of the power, but I wasn't that excited about the interior either. GM's kind of rub me the wrong way on the interior, they all look too generic for me. This was what kept me from buying a new Vette a few years ago.
When I was buying my Maxima, I was debating between the Maxima and the Acura TL Type-S, old body style. It was really a coin flip at that point, I had driven every car in it's class, from the Grand Prix SE, to the CTS, to the Accord, etc, and decided on the Acura instead of the Maxima. The Acura dealer blew me off 3 days in a row so I drove down the street and bought the Maxima... when he finally called me the next day and asked me if I would come down to do the deal, I said "sure, I will come down, did you want to see my new Maxima?"... what a dummy that kid was, he blew an easy sale. |
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| Axiama |
quote:
Originally posted by gmc74
I totally see where you were going on this.
I think she was giving you a small nuggest, there are a lot more than 40 dealerships in the country, compared to the small number of plants. Essentially, for every worker at a plant in the US, there are 4 at dealerships.
That is probably very true, but I don't believe the numbers in that story are reflecting on the dealerships, since they are not owned by Acura. If they are using those numbers, then the author should be ashamed of himself for spinning the numbers.
I didn't think about it that way but now this presents something else to consider. If the dealerships are individually owned by (assuming) U.S. individuals then those employees shouldn't be considered into the equation AT ALL. So, instead of saying that foreign auto makers employ 103,000 US employees they would say that foreign auto makers employ 20,600 compared to the 320,000 employed by US auto makers.
Wouldn't that be the real spin?
And check it out, the chick can do math. :p |
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| dfc101a |
quote:
Originally posted by gmc74
detroitbuildingtrades.org is hardly an unbiased third party.
That being said, one of the things they touted, seems to me to be one of the biggest problems with the big three -
If Ford, GM and Chrysler shrink to about 320,000 workers, and drop to the market share projected by Auto News last June, they will still employ about twice as many workers on a per car basis as Toyota. (About 33 cars per employee.) You can argue that some of this is due to comparative efficiencies, but a great deal of it has to do with where a company houses its researchers, its accountants, its engineers and designers.
So what they are saying, is that if the big three shrink, they will still be less efficient than Toyota? I am not sure why they tout this as being a benefit. I think it is great that they can put that many resources into a car, but considering their losses (this is a fact) and the lack of quality (this is my opinion) that doesn't bode well for them at all.
This wreaks of inneficiency, and I find it funny that the largely union based trade group considers this a benefit.
The trade groups always spin to an agenda. The annual Harbour Report is a great source on the productivity topic.
http://www.automotive.com/features/...8989/index.html |
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| gmc74 |
I don't know. I am guessing, and that is all I can really do here with this, that they would spin it to have the least number of people possible, considering the source.
I would bet that the numbers have to include Honda/Acura of America, and all of the resources that they have here in the US.
I took a moment to google it, and on Honda's site they say -
We opened our first U.S. plant in 1979 and have evolved into a company that directly employs more than 25,000 Americans. More than 100,000 workers are employed at authorized Honda automobile, motorcycle and power-equipment dealerships in the United States. Tens of thousands of additional Americans are employed by more than nearly 600 U.S. suppliers from which Honda purchases parts and materials. Honda is proud to provide jobs that help better the American economy and will continue to work hard to do so.
This information leads me to believe that whomever wrote that story was counting dealerships, since the math works out perfectly.
That being said, whomever wrote it was definitely spinning.
Here is a LINK to the US Honda facilites.
Hey, the chick can do math... that pushes you above the majority :2: |
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| Axiama |
I think I'm going to need more of an explanation here. Are you saying that levelfieldinstitute.org and is artifically inflating the number of US employees of foreign automakers by including dealership employees? And that is somehow spinning the facts to support their cause? :confused:
BTW, if you refer back to my first post on this subject you'll note that it begins with "A Center for Automotive Research study sponsored by foreign automakers..." So the data obtained in a study sponsored by foreign automakers matches the theoretical spin data of levelfieldinstitute.org. |
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| zman |
quote:
Originally posted by gmc74
Now go take your geritol and enjoy your Buick, oh, and say hi to my grandmother at the old folks home (this was humor for those that it is lost on) :2:
I would but those make my prostate grow too big and I have a hard time peeing, plus they make me constipated. |
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by zman
I would but those make my prostate grow too big and I have a hard time peeing, plus they make me constipated.
rotflmao
Nice one, I guess a couple of us still have a sense of humor on here |
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| gmc74 |
quote:
Originally posted by Axiama
I think I'm going to need more of an explanation here. Are you saying that levelfieldinstitute.org and is artifically inflating the number of US employees of foreign automakers by including dealership employees? And that is somehow spinning the facts to support their cause? :confused:
BTW, if you refer back to my first post on this subject you'll note that it begins with "A Center for Automotive Research study sponsored by foreign automakers..." So | | | |
