| cyborfool |
hi All,
been doing my research on the MDX (v RX, ML, X5, etc.) and have all but decided this is the right choice for me.
initially planned on leasing, but am wondering what kind of lease 'deals' others have been able to find. is leasing a good option with the MDX?
what are the best lease deals you've found?
thx!
cyborfool
btw - did some searches on the site an didn't find previous info on this, but maybe i missed it.. |
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| davegood |
Cyberfool --
Thanks for asking, and welcome to the board. I was planning on bringing this question up as well.
My dealer did confirm that residuals for the 01 models are lower now than they were at the beginning of the year. Furthermore, she said that they would go up again for the 02 model year. Therefore, there may be some difference between early 01 leases and late 01 leases.
I would be interested in hearing som people's leasing deals / experiences if you don't feel it is too privacy threatening.
I'm sure eveybody understands leasing, so feel free to ignore the rest of this post, but I still feel that some people get confused. The lease price is simple -- It is made up of the following variables:
MSRP
Negotiated Price
Residual Factor - dependent upon mileage
Interest Rate
For most MDXs, the Negotiated Price will be equal to the MSRP. Just for example purposes, say you get a touring and Nav for 500 off
MSRP = 39,450
Negotiated Price = 38,950
Going interest rate = 7.5%
The lease payment is made up of the difference between the current negotiated price, and the residual amount. The residual amount is based on a percentage of MSRP. For a 36 month lease with 15,000 miles/year, a residual may be like 65%. Therefore, the residual amount is 39,450 x .65 = 25,642.
Therefore, the amount financed is actually the difference between your negotiated price, and the present value of 25,642. Without getting overly financial, Present Value is the current amount of money you would have to put aside at a given rate to have an amount in the future. In this instance, if you put aside 22,000 for 36 months at 7.5% interest, you would have around 25,600. (I didn't actually figure out the PV of 25,600, just a rough guess).
In any case,
Negotiated price of 38,950 - Pv of residual of 22,000 = 16,950 at 7.5% would be your payment.
.What's the point of all this???
What I'm getting to with all this is that there was a thread a while back that said if you 'add the nav or running boards, you are paying the whole 2,000 for that option if you lease. This is not true -- as the 2000 increases the MSRP, it also increase the residual. Therefore, you lease the nav system (or any other dealer installed option) at the same terms as the rest of the car |
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| jliveMDX |
here are my numbers:
Base Model
535/month for 36 months incl tax @6%(FL)
1900 down out of pocket, which paid for the dealer fee, tage and titles, plus options up front....
money factor .0028 residual 22652
12k miles per year at 15 cents per over the limit
do not let them roll the dealer and acq fee into the lease... ull be paying interest on those amounts..... |
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| RGWomack |
| Residual is based off of MSRP, add ons are partially residualized. Also the residuals are higher for a 186 Touring, than a 188 Touring w/nav. The lenders figure the value of the nav system will depreciate more. |
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| metmdx |
quote:
Originally posted by RGWomack
Residual is based off of MSRP, add ons are partially residualized. Also the residuals are higher for a 186 Touring, than a 188 Touring w/nav. The lenders figure the value of the nav system will depreciate more.
Roger - you are the most informative person around and I don't question your information, but why in the world would a Nav model depreciate faster than non-nav....it doesn't make sense...what you're saying (i think) is that nav is a liability in the long run?:confused:
metmdx |
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| RGWomack |
| The only thing I can figure is all the lenders depreciate the nav system more (electronics). Every time I looked at the residual book the residual was always a couple of points less. The RL and TL residual are less also w/nav. Other makes w/nav are also less. |
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| RGWomack |
This may have been discussed before but thought I would bring it up. Residuals are usually always higher when the new model is released, as the year progresses and the vehicle depreciates the lenders lower the residuals. This is not something most dealerships go out of their way to let you know for the obvious reasons. Also money factors change, banks get more aggressive at times and I've never been able to figure out when or why on that one. Because of these factors leases can vary a lot through out the year. Just get some good comparisons.
Another reason may be the dealer may not be making enough profit on the MDX so they may increase the money factor a little to make a little more on the back end. Just do your homework. |
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| davegood |
I understand clearly that residuals for different models of the same car will differ -- Nav vs Non nav.
So, a Nav version may have a 67% residual after 36 months, and a non nav version may have a 71% residual (or something).
However, I think that if I added running boards, flares, and wood (say $2,000 worth of stuff), that that would be included.
Therefore, the nav's residual would be like 67% of ~42k, and the non nav's residual would be like 71% of ~40k. Either way, I'm not out of pocket for the entire cost of the options -- just the 'amount that I will use' over the course of the lease. I only bring this up because in a thread about 2 months ago someone said that adding nav to a lease cost you the entire $2,000, which is not true.
Roger, please correct me if I'm misunderstood.
Jlive -- thanks for sharing your #s. |
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| Foxbat |
Think of when you sell your old car, any options on the car hardly add up to anything in the resell value of the car. So any options you purchased on your new car won't contribute much to your residuals. That's means you have to pay for them in your lease period.
Foxbat |
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| davegood |
Not really -- this is where leasing differs from outright buying. Adding the wood trim now for $700 or whatever it is will probably not get you another dollar when you sell the car, you're right. The only options that are typically worth anything down the road are the obvious ones -- bigger engines, whether or not the car has A/C.
However, when you lease, that 700 addition for the wood trim gets added to the MSRP of the car. the MSRP is then multiplied by the residual fastor for your model to arrive at the residual amount.
If your car had a 67% residual amount (meaning that they forecast it will be worth 67% of the current MSRP in 36 months based upon 15,000 miles/year), when you lease the car, you only pay for 33% of the cost of the additional accessories that you add. This is because the $700 for the wood trim is added to the msrp, and adds 700x.67 = $469 to the residual.
You are correct, though, in realizing that if you bought the car there is no way you could get a buyer to pay an additional 469 for the trim. |
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| RGWomack |
Residual is based off of MSRP. Some factory accessories can be residualized maybe 50%. So if you add $3000 worth of accessories you may be able to add (half) $1500 into the mix. I'll take a peek this morning when I get to work.
That $700 steering wheel will add $700 to the cap cost, but only about $350 if that, will be figured into the residual. |
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| davegood |
Roger,
While we're on this thread, could you post the current residual factors for the 182,184,186, and 188 models for 36 and 39 months, 12, and 15,000 miles. I understand that the 01s were higher at the beginning of the model year, and will be higher for the 02s.
Also, any idea when 02 factors will be release by AHFC? |
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| RGWomack |
Dave, I'm on my way to work now, I'll see if I can find that info for you. It will be this evening when I get home before I can post anything. Call me at work if you want, toll free 877.408.3325.
Later |
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| davegood |
Roger -- Thanks for the phone number -- it's not that urgent. -- if you could post the factors over the next day or two, that would be great!
Thanks again for everything you do for this board. |
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| Kap |
My two previous cars were BMW's before I bought my MDX. It's interesting that BMW Financial residualized all options, except the trunk cd-player, at the same rate as the car.
I don't know if they also accelerate depreciation on their NAV. |
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| FatBoyMDX |
Give Lease Banc a call at 800-717-8521 or visit www.leasebanc.com.
They compare a number of banks that offer different Leasing Programs, which Acura couldn't beat over here. The car was a base+navi with only mud guards and wheel locks, so the total was approximately 36,993
Here are two:
First Star:
473.08 (including 8% CA tax)
Residual 52%
Money Factor: 0.00237 (5.69 APR)
Around 6,000 down (includes first month, taxes acquisition costs, etc)
48 Months, 12,000 Miles/year, 18cents penalty
Wells Fargo
468 (including 8% CA tax)
Residual 55%
Money Factor: 0.00275 (6.60 APR)
Around 6,000 down (includes first month, taxes acquisition costs, etc)
48 Months, 12,000 Miles/year 15 cents penalty
I ended up with First Star because the out of pocket for the 4 years was just slightly more, but the residual was much lower, so if I decide to sell or buy at the end, I'm in good shape.
Ask for Debbie Boone.
Good luck. |
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| texrb |
One thing to remember about LeaseBanc (or any other 3rd party lease company) is they add some amount of profit to the cost of the MDX. When I called Debbie about a month ago, $1400 was added for their fee.
I have a Lotus model that I use (I also be converted to Excel '95) when I lease (or "smartbuy") a car. I put together a comparison between the '01 & '02 MDX. I made an assumption on the residuals for '02, and also assumed a 1% price increase for all 4 models. This is not perfect, but comes up within a couple $$ a month of the actual payment - so use it as a guide. All you need to do is input the blue items. I used Texas state tax rates (6.25), so you will need to edit those for your own states.
I hope this is helpful - just remember - it is a guide....... |
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| texrb |
| I tried to post the Excel version, but couldn't - so if you are using Excel (I have Office 200 ver) it won't convert the .123 ver files from Lotus. Sorry......:( |
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| genemish |
| Can you please take a snapshot of the comparison chart using ALT key + Print Scrn and then paste that into "Imaging" or "Paint" and save as a JPEG or GIF and then post that here... i would love to take a look at your figures as I am waiting for my 2002 and have been offered a 2001.. |
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| metmdx |
Not to beat a dead horse here, but even if the "options" don't give you dollar for dollar value at the end of the lease, it still doesn't make sense that "non-Nav" would have higher residual than "Nav". The only way that could be is if the "option" (in this case "Nav") depreciated past it's cost to give you negative equity on that item. We're talking "Nav" here, not orange shag carpets !;)
metmdx |
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| chris.soto |
MetMDX:
I don't think anyone is saying (if they are, they shouldn't be) that a Non-NAV MDX will be worth more than a NAV in 2 years if bought at the same time.
It is simply the case the the Non-NAV will depreciate less from its original value, percentage-wise because it does not have the faster depreciating element of the NAV (electronic device which will be significantly improved upon and cost reduced as an option in the coming 2 years).
:cool: IMH(BA)O :cool:
Chris |
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| texrb |
Genemish........
My figures may not be helpful to you - they are based on 48 mo 12/k yr. |
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| texrb |
| Gemenish - I attached the screenshot to the previous- but it wouldn't post. pm me and I will be happy to run your #s for you. |
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| davegood |
I created the attached -- It doesn't include sales tax in the monthly pmt, as I live in DE, where it is 2.75% all upfront.
Keep in mind if you trade, the sales tax is the amount net of the trade.
Feel free to change any of the variables - residual, term, int rate, MSRP, or purchase price
I had to zip it for it to be a valid extension. If you don't have winzip to unzip it, get it free from www.winzip.com. I saved it in Excel 95 format which hopefully most people can use. If someone wants to enhance it, feel free... |
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| texrb |
Thanks Davegood :)
Duh!!!! I didn't think about zipping the file. |
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| davegood |
Now, once Roger provides us with some residual factors, and lets us know which options count toward the residual factors, we should be able to plug those #s in and get pretty good rough estimates.
Great thread, IMO |
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| FatBoyMDX |
I don't have the papers in front of me, but I think I only paid $300 profit. I'll check when I get home tonight. Either way, it was still a better program then what Acura could offer.
quote:
Originally posted by texrb
One thing to remember about LeaseBanc (or any other 3rd party lease company) is they add some amount of profit to the cost of the MDX. When I called Debbie about a month ago, $1400 was added for their fee.
I have a Lotus model that I use (I also be converted to Excel '95) when I lease (or "smartbuy") a car. I put together a comparison between the '01 & '02 MDX. I made an assumption on the residuals for '02, and also assumed a 1% price increase for all 4 models. This is not perfect, but comes up within a couple $$ a month of the actual payment - so use it as a guide. All you need to do is input the blue items. I used Texas state tax rates (6.25), so you will need to edit those for your own states.
I hope this is helpful - just remember - it is a guide.......
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| texrb |
| Thanks FatboyMDX - if you only paid $300 fee, then you got a great deal. Maybe I need to call Debbie back....... |
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| RGWomack |
I made an error in my earlier post, as far as AHFC.
Hard adds for the 2001 MDX are:
CD Changer $650.00 only on the 182 and 184
Running Boards $400.00
Side Step $300.00
Thats it for hard adds that can be added to the MSRP before you residualize.
This was interesting: AHFC Residuals: sep 1, to oct 31, 2001
39 or 42 months 12 K
182 60%
184 58%
186 58%
188 58%
This is the first time I have seen residuals the same for nav and non nav from AHFC, but its been a while since I looked. The TL and RL still have a 2 point difference between nav and non nav.
Bank of America residuals 36 months 12k:
182 ............59%
184 w nav .57%
186.............57%
188 w/nav..55%
Note: Residual allowance is NOT permitted for any optional hard-add not mentioned in this bulleton.
(Thats what it says in the Honda Finance booklet) So the only three items mentioned as hard adds are above. |
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| AtlantaMDX |
quote:
Originally posted by Foxbat
Think of when you sell your old car, any options on the car hardly add up to anything in the resell value of the car. So any options you purchased on your new car won't contribute much to your residuals. That's means you have to pay for them in your lease period.
Foxbat
Per Clark Howard (www.clarkhoward.com), a local consumer watchdog (and your personal pocket protector), various trim levels of vehicles (and accessories) meger as the car ages. So in the case of an Accord, the EX, LX, and DX all merge as time goes on. Extending this logic, the same would be true of the Premium and Touring.... |
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| FatBoyMDX |
Guys, just wanted to share something I learned through this process, this being my first lease. You all probably know this, but I'll post anyway.
Seeing all these posts about residuals reminded me that its not always bad that the residual is low, its just one of the levers for the whole package. Take my First Star versus Wells example.
52% residual on First Star and 55% on Wells Fargo.
Wells Fargo had a 17 cent penalty, First Star had an 18 cent penalty.
Wells fargo was $5 cheaper a month.
Looks like Wells is the winner, eh? However, because the money factor was so low on First Star (5.69% vs 6.60), the cost of First Star over 4 years was cheaper then the Wells Fargo lease by $1000.
So what about the Mileage penalty? At 12000 miles over - the first star is only $160 more expensive! However, the resdiual is also $1000 cheaper on the First Star. Assuming I sell the car or buy it at the end, getting the First Star Lease, saves $2000 over the Wells Lease.
okay, maybe I'm stating th obvious, but I was pretty happy. |
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| metmdx |
quote:
Originally posted by chris.soto
MetMDX:
I don't think anyone is saying (if they are, they shouldn't be) that a Non-NAV MDX will be worth more than a NAV in 2 years if bought at the same time.
It is simply the case the the Non-NAV will depreciate less from its original value, percentage-wise because it does not have the faster depreciating element of the NAV (electronic device which will be significantly improved upon and cost reduced as an option in the coming 2 years).
:cool: IMH(BA)O :cool:
Chris
Residual is based off of MSRP, add ons are partially residualized. Also the residuals are higher for a 186 Touring, than a 188 Touring w/nav. The lenders figure the value of the nav system will depreciate more.
I hate to disagree Chris, but isn't that what Roger's quote above says? |
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| RGWomack |
I don't know who is confused, me or you.
With AHFC residual is 58% for 39 or 42 months 12K for both 186 and 188's
186 MSRP is $37,450 residual at 58% is $21,721
188 MSRP is $39,450 residual at 58% is $22,881
Bank of America 36 months 12k
186 MSRP is $37,450 residual at 57% is $21,346.50
188 MSRP is $39,450 residual at 55% is $21,697.50
Right now with AHFC the residual is the same for the 186 or 188.
With Bank of America the residual is lower for the 188 which is normally the case. But because the cost is $2000 more for the 188 the value is still higher even though the residual % is lower. |
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| chris.soto |
quote:
Originally posted my metmdx
Residual is based off of MSRP, add ons are partially residualized. Also the residuals are higher for a 186 Touring, than a 188 Touring w/nav. The lenders figure the value of the nav system will depreciate more.
I hate to disagree Chris, but isn't that what Roger's quote above says?
Not to nitpick, but I will:
I may not have been clear before, but if you read my post again you will see that it coincides exactly with the post by RGWomack after your quoted post above.
Just trying to be useful. :) |
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| GCK |
I came across this web http://www.generalcar.com - They have 2002 MDX (Base) at 489/mo for 36 Months with 1500 Down payment.
When I contacted them for a Touring w/Navigation, the rate was around $729/mo. When asked why there was so much difference between the Base and the Trouing/Nav version, he told me that it's because of Tour/Nav is more expensive. I could not buy that argument, as $ 4,600 in Cap cost would result in $250 more per month.
I then offered him pay the difference between the Base and Tour/Nav as down payment (+1500) and get the $489 payment. He said no. My thoughts were that there is some catch in that $489 payment. I had to run, so didn't get into details.
I guess, if some one really is interested in leasing the base, you might talk to them. |
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| Kap |
C'mon...36 x $240 = a lot more than a NAV costs.
I smell a big rat, and you should, too.
I think it's called, "Bait and Switch". |
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| davegood |
I do think that outside lease companies include all options towards the MSRP. AHFC may limit it to certain options, but I'm pretty sure that outside leasing companies don't go through the process of evaluating every option on every car to figure out if they should be residualized or not.
Roger -- do you write leases through finance companies other than AHFC? -- And thanks for the residuals. Do you recall off hand about how much higher they were at the beginning of the model year, or have any predictions when the 02 factors will come out? |
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| metmdx |
Chris,
Mea culpa....I'm not going to go any further here....maybe I confused the residual % with the residual $....I probably need a vacation......Moving along...........
:cool:
metmdx |
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| RGWomack |
Dave,
We use many lenders other than AHFC, BOA, Wells Fargo, Credit Unions. I don't think any lenders will add the soft adds to be residualized. I didn't realize that our only hard adds were side steps, running board, and cd changer until yesterday, when I went through the finance info. There may be some lenders who residualize more of the accessories or a percentage thereof but I don't know of any right now. I would guess if they do, the residual % may be lower. As far as predicting residuals for the 2002. I don't remember what they were the beginning of this year (the 70's was a little rough on me) Someone out there remember?, should be about the same. |
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| davegood |
I thought that my dealer mentioned that the residual factors dropped 4-5 % from the beginning to the end of the model year.
Also, and I don't know about this holding true for MDXs, but it seems that going from 12,000 to 15,000 mile / year typically adds $30-35/month -- does this seem about right?
--- D. |
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| GaTadpole777 |
36 months, no money down, 15,000 miles a year= $640.00 a month.
This seemed like a good/fair deal since your could not buy the car or lease it below MSRP.
The dealer did "throw" in a few options.
Hope this helps. |
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| RGWomack |
| On the AHFC leases I posted yesterday, it is for 15k per year add 2 % to the residual for 12K, sorry!!! |
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| davegood |
Thanks for the clarfication, Roger.
Has anyone taken the time to punch some of these numbers into TexRBs spreadsheet -- we could come up with a pretty close calculation for the 4 models, 2 terms and 2 mileage settings that Roger has provided.
I am more than happy to work it up -- just let me know - unless someone else has already done it or wants to... |
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| texrb |
| I'll do it and post |
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| texrb |
39 mo/12k 39 mo/15k
182 - $508.94 $524.72
184 - $554.83 $571.52
186 - $563.86 $580.82
188 - $593.98 $611.84
42mo/12k 42 mo/15k
182 - $484.68 $499.18
184 - $527.83 $543.17
186 - $536.43 $552.01
188 - $565.07 $581.49
182 - base
184 - base + nav
186 - touring
188 - touring + nav
Assumes MSRP w/TT&L down & money factor of .0030
No options |
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| texrb |
FYI - for those using Excel - the zipped file I posted earlier in the thread (I think on pg 2) is in excel - the unzipped one is in Lotus.
These numbers I posted are to be used as a guide & are based on the residuals Roger posted earlier & are for 2001 model year. The money factor of .0030 is about 7.25%. Hope this is helpful. |
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| RGWomack |
Couple more things copied from the AHFC booklet.
Acquisition Fee:
An Acquisition fee of $550.00 is charged on each leased vehicle and may be added to the gross capitalized cost or collected from the lessee at lease signing. The amount may not be waived. Every lease will have Guaranteed Auto Protection (GAP).
Security Deposit:
A refundable security deposit must be collected for each leased vehicle except when a special program eliminates this requirement. The security deposit collected from the customer must be no less than an amount equal to the total monthly payment, rounded up to the next $25.00 increment.
Security Deposit may be waived with an increase of .00010 of the money factor.
Remember first payment is always figured in also. |
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| texrb |
Roger,
That info re: the $550 acquisition fee is not mentioned inAcura's web site - under the lease calculator section.
http://www.eacura.com/brand/AcuraEstimate.asp
After you put in your numbers, the only thing mentioned is a security deposit & first month's payment. The payment is posted based on TT&L down only. For example a 39 mo/12k lease payment on a 188 is $593.81 with a $600 security deposit. Total due at signing (not incl TT&L) is $1243.83.
Is Acura's web site wrong?
For those comparing the Acura's 39 mo/12k # to my spreadsheet -you're right - my # is $593.98 - told you my spreadsheet was off a little :) |
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| texrb |
oops!!!
Total due at signing is $1193.81 ( my earlier calc was from a 36 mo 12/k example) Sorry for the confusion. |
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| RGWomack |
texrb,
That is what the the booklet says. I thought you always paid an acquisition fee. I just turned the booklet over and I see a website
www.hondafinance.com I'm going to look there, later.
I'm back, They have a pretty good lease calculator there. I didn't see anything at the website on acquisition fees either but the wording in the booklet is very clear. |
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| texrb |
Roger,
Thanks for the confirmation - at least now I (and others that lease) won't be surprised if the dealer says there is an acquisition fee. Maybe Acura/Honda will update their website info. |
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| AtlantaMDX |
| You should confirm there is no "end of lease fee" also (I forget the proper term). On my first Honda lease there was. Because of that, I used a different agency for my second lease (my credit union). |
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| texrb |
AHFC had a turn-in fee of $400 for Hondas if you don't buy them or trade them for another Honda/Acura product. The Honda products did not have a lease origination fee though - like Roger stated for the MDX - when I did a lease in '97 & a LPP (balloon payment) in '98
I would imagine if they are charging $550 up front, then there should be no turn in fee at the end - but who knows?? That's a good question to ask your friendly Acura finance manager!!
Thanks for bringing up that point AtlantaMDX :) |
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| AtlantaMDX |
| I forgot to mention that part. If I'd leased or bought through Honda for my next vehicle, the "lease end fee" would be waived. I leased through my credit union because it was a better deal. |
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| sgtglok |
I did post a detailed info on my lease for my Gigi (182) awhile ago - $505.98/48 mo/12k (incl. 7.25% ny tax); paid destination charge, sec. dedosit, lic & reg. fees upfront, plus added r. boards & r. rack additional at msrp+tax.
If I remember right, AHFC residual was 58% (in May 01), money factor translated into low 7s (in %). Davegood posted a detailed lease info, also it did not mention that you also are charged the taxes on the interest, so you pay taxes of full msrp + taxes for that 7.5% apr your leasee gets. Sucks! Overall, I'm still happy with my decission. |
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| RGWomack |
| Oregon no tax. Washington taxes are paid monthly based on your payment. |
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| acuraron |
re: good lease or not
My lease price for 2001 MDX with touring and cargo cover as only option, 36 months, 15000 miles per year, is $650 per month after initial payment of about $1200. My guess is this is relatively fair--am picking up my vehicle later this week. I am not aware of any better deals out there given the difficulty in finding this SUV. |
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| jpod15 |
| Does this include taxes,title,etc??? |
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| acuraron |
| that is everything, including taxes and delivery fees |
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