| Squishy |
| What kind of additives or characteristics are present in Z1 that aren't there for Dexron III? I'm wondering why D-III is adequate as a temporary replacement but fails in the long term. |
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| frenchnew |
Only Honda or the transmission manufacturer can answer you on this issue and it is likely to change depending on the manufacturer of that Dexron III fluid.
Most people assume that transmission fluid is certified the same way as engine oil, it is not!.
Engine Oil is certified in North America by the American Petroleum Institute;
http://www.api.org/aboutoilgas/motoroil/
Automatic Transmission fluid is certified by the Transmission Manufacturer.
To be certified, the fluid manufacturer as to supplied his fluid to the transmission manufacturer for testing and be willing to pay the certification fees associated with the process.
There are additives out there that are said to modify the friction property of Dexron to make it compatible to other standard. How good a job they do is unknown and their performance claim is purely speculative and as yet to be proven. Are you willing to use your MDX as a guinea pig?
There are other manufacturer out there that have a compatible fluid to ATF-Z1, Amsoil being one and I believe that Pennzoil has one also.
Best Regards from somewhere north of Montreal
frenchnew |
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| Squishy |
| There should be published data somewhere on kinematic viscosities, pour point, TBN, etc. All the data I seem to turn up on Google is for Amsoil Synthetic ATF or other non-Honda MSDS sheets, which only give kinematic viscosity at 40'C. I read somewhere that Dexron VI had similar characteristics to Z1, but I'd like to confirm that with numbers. |
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| proman |
I don't remember the manual says the tranny will "fail" if you don't use Honda oil. I doubt they dare to say that, because they will face big trouble if they do. And I believe Honda just does this to give the owners a psychological pressure to use their products. And even if you don't, they can't void the warranty. But, who wants to be a millionaire? Oh, I mean guinea pig.
In reality, if you don't use Honda oil and the tranny really fails due to that, Honda has to honor the warranty. By law, the car manufacturer can only state (more specifically, recommend) the specs of the fluid. The can not specify the brand you need to use.
That's why Honda can't tell you "If you don't use Honda fluid, the tranny will fail and warranty will be voided", but can only say "you can use Dx III as temporary replacement.....". How long is temporary? Never defined. And what you need to do after using this "temp replacement"? Do you need to flush the tranny and refill with Honda fluid? Or just drain and refill which leaves 60% of old fluid in the tranny? Will the tranny really fail? I doubt it! That's the grey area Honda leaves there to scare the owner to push the sales, and still stay within the limit of the law. |
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| BaldEagle |
What's lacking in Dexron III? Profit for Honda/Acura.
Couldn't believe they were charging over $6.50 a quart for Z1 when I did the 3X change a few months ago. |
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| Squishy |
| I'm glad more people are feeling this way. I asked a similar question before and the general response I got was "follow the manual, Honda knows best." I've switched all of our cars over to Dexron VI except the MDX, because I know nothing about Z1. I'd like to find some technical specs on Z1 fluid somewhere, but this does make me feel better about switching over the MDX. |
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| frenchnew |
quote:
Originally posted by proman
I don't remember the manual says the tranny will "fail" if you don't use Honda oil. I doubt they dare to say that, because they will face big trouble if they do. And I believe Honda just does this to give the owners a psychological pressure to use their products. And even if you don't, they can't void the warranty. But, who wants to be a millionaire? Oh, I mean guinea pig.
In reality, if you don't use Honda oil and the tranny really fails due to that, Honda has to honor the warranty. By law, the car manufacturer can only state (more specifically, recommend) the specs of the fluid. The can not specify the brand you need to use.
That's why Honda can't tell you "If you don't use Honda fluid, the tranny will fail and warranty will be voided", but can only say "you can use Dx III as temporary replacement.....". How long is temporary? Never defined. And what you need to do after using this "temp replacement"? Do you need to flush the tranny and refill with Honda fluid? Or just drain and refill which leaves 60% of old fluid in the tranny? Will the tranny really fail? I doubt it! That's the grey area Honda leaves there to scare the owner to push the sales, and still stay within the limit of the law.
The law you mention is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and is only valid in the USA.
If you have a transmission failure and they suspect the fluid used was not the proper one, you better be prepared to hire a lawyer.
As fo others looking for viscosity, TBN - TBN is for engine oil.
Automatic Transmissions use "Fluid" not oil, and no they do not have to post their secret receipe.
The make up of the transmission fluid is more additives then oil based and is considered a chemical more then a lubricant. |
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| frenchnew |
quote:
Originally posted by proman
I don't remember the manual says the tranny will "fail" if you don't use Honda oil. I doubt they dare to say that, because they will face big trouble if they do. And I believe Honda just does this to give the owners a psychological pressure to use their products. And even if you don't, they can't void the warranty. But, who wants to be a millionaire? Oh, I mean guinea pig.
In reality, if you don't use Honda oil and the tranny really fails due to that, Honda has to honor the warranty. By law, the car manufacturer can only state (more specifically, recommend) the specs of the fluid. The can not specify the brand you need to use.
That's why Honda can't tell you "If you don't use Honda fluid, the tranny will fail and warranty will be voided", but can only say "you can use Dx III as temporary replacement.....". How long is temporary? Never defined. And what you need to do after using this "temp replacement"? Do you need to flush the tranny and refill with Honda fluid? Or just drain and refill which leaves 60% of old fluid in the tranny? Will the tranny really fail? I doubt it! That's the grey area Honda leaves there to scare the owner to push the sales, and still stay within the limit of the law.
The law you mention is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and is only valid in the USA.
If you have a transmission failure and they suspect the fluid used was not the proper one, you better be prepared to hire a lawyer.
As for others looking for viscosity, TBN - TBN is for engine oil.
Automatic Transmissions use "Fluid" not oil, and no they do not have to post their secret recipe.
The make up of the transmission fluid is more additives then oil based and is considered a chemical more then a lubricant. |
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| Squishy |
| I'm still researching the significance of TBN for ATF, but it's one of the listed properties for Petro-Canada Dexron VI (2.0). And I'm not looking for a secret recipe - all I want is the fluid behaviour characteristics. It seems to be available for every other fluid on the market. |
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