| RN7676 |
Maybe the transmission issues are not completely confined to the 01 02 models. This is a long one, but here is all the info.
My 2005 MDX (build date Nov 2004) at 41,000 miles is at Acura right now. They diagnosed it as having a torque converter malfunction and they are installing a new transmission under warranty. (They elected for a new transmission over just replacing the torque converter without any input from me).
My research here leads me to beleive that hanging in gear and not upshifting is a transmission problem usually confined to the 01- 02 models. And the 'rumblestrip' vibration that occurs during upshifts at lower speeds is a torque converter problem (which is not necessarily confined to 01- 02 models).
My 05 MDX has the 'rumblestrip' vibration. In D5 on flat ground between 35-40mph at very light throttle it tries to upshift all the way and makes the rumble vibration. Add a bit more throttle and it will rumble while downshifting as well. It usually does it for a fraction of a second but sometimes it will rubmle for 2-3 seconds solid. It is not 'intermittant'; I can make it happen over and over again. Luckily the service techs at Acura could repeat the problem as well.
It only happens in D5. If I leave it in D4 it does not make any unusual noise.
It has not set any EGR codes or misfire codes (which are sometimes interpreted as a transmission vibration). ... No trouble codes or VTM lights either. It is purely a mechanical failure, the computer sensors don't know anything about it. Acura agreed that my broken motor mounts have nothing to do with this vibration. They'll fix those too.
Unrelated ... I have this snazzy blue 08 TSX loaner car and I love it! It looks cool, feels the right size, handles great, and is pretty snappy (not fast, but I'd call it snappy!). Anyways, I really dig it! I don't want to give it back! |
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| BrianV |
Prepare for countless of people coming in with their 2 cents.
There's no concrete data on the trannies. It seems some 01-02s last forever, others fail multiple times. I've seen a lot of 03 and 04 people here complaining as well so it's definitely not completely fixed in the later years, however, it is probably improved slightly (it's just too hard to find legit data to conclude anything).
With 86K on our 02, our transmission is perfect. I used to be really concerned about it due to the horror stories, but every little thing I felt turned out to be something else (egr valve and egr ports for example).
Our MDX is running like a champ. I think my shocks are a little worn but the dealer refuses to admit anything is wrong with them which annoys me. My only other problem is I get a rear suspension crunching noise over bumps when I have 7 adults loaded up in the car (lots of weight). The dealer has not been able to reproduce it, but based on my math I'm exceeding the recommended weight of the car.
Long story short, our drivetrain feels like a brand new car (knock on wood). There doesn't appear to be a trend regarding which cars have tranny problems. We baby ours and drive it really easy (mainly for gas consumption reasons), but people here claim that driving styles have no bearing on it.
At least you're getting it taken care of. On a final note, I think Honda has historically always had bad auto trannies. In the 90s their autos were definitely the worst of any major manufacturer. They just all seemed to slip and start acting up earlier than other cars. As an owner of many cars of all manufacturers, I can say with certainty that my Nissan and Toyota autos have far outperformed our Honda ones when we get passed the 100k mark. This is also considering my friend's experiences with Hondas. Their manual transmissions are excellent, but their autos not so much. They went through a lot of PR nightmares in the early 21st century with the TL, CL, and even MDX issues.
However, I have confidence in our MDX and am really impressed with how it's running after 86k miles. |
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| BrianV |
quote:
Originally posted by RN7676
Maybe the transmission issues are not completely confined to the 01 02 models. This is a long one, but here is all the info.
My 2005 MDX (build date Nov 2004) at 41,000 miles is at Acura right now. They diagnosed it as having a torque converter malfunction and they are installing a new transmission under warranty. (They elected for a new transmission over just replacing the torque converter without any input from me).
My research here leads me to beleive that hanging in gear and not upshifting is a transmission problem usually confined to the 01- 02 models. And the 'rumblestrip' vibration that occurs during upshifts at lower speeds is a torque converter problem (which is not necessarily confined to 01- 02 models).
My 05 MDX has the 'rumblestrip' vibration. In D5 on flat ground between 35-40mph at very light throttle it tries to upshift all the way and makes the rumble vibration. Add a bit more throttle and it will rumble while downshifting as well. It usually does it for a fraction of a second but sometimes it will rubmle for 2-3 seconds solid. It is not 'intermittant'; I can make it happen over and over again. Luckily the service techs at Acura could repeat the problem as well.
It only happens in D5. If I leave it in D4 it does not make any unusual noise.
It has not set any EGR codes or misfire codes (which are sometimes interpreted as a transmission vibration). ... No trouble codes or VTM lights either. It is purely a mechanical failure, the computer sensors don't know anything about it. Acura agreed that my broken motor mounts have nothing to do with this vibration. They'll fix those too.
Unrelated ... I have this snazzy blue 08 TSX loaner car and I love it! It looks cool, feels the right size, handles great, and is pretty snappy (not fast, but I'd call it snappy!). Anyways, I really dig it! I don't want to give it back!
Also, like I mentioned earlier, I used to think I had the rumblestrip even after I had my EGR valve replaced, however, the dealer said I didn't I just needed my EGR ports cleared. I had them do that, and the D5 35-40mph surge went away. Mine also would do it for a couple seconds under the right condition. I never had any check engine or VTM-4 lights go off.
Good luck, keep us posted. |
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| jhue |
quote:
Originally posted by BrianV
Prepare for countless of people coming in with their 2 cents.
And with that here's mine:
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7383/reliabnj0.png
The above chart from Consumers Reports matches my impression of 2001-2006 transmission reliability based on reading this forum. Reports of tranny problems on MY2004-6 seem pretty rare. |
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| ocuriel |
I think that rumble strip feel is normal if you are in d5.
If the trans shifts into 5th gear and you are going at lower speeds then the 5th gear is intended for, it will make a rumble noise until it reaches proper speed.
Ever driven a manual trans and shifted into higher gear then what is it suppose to be in? It will do the same thing.
Acura dealers are very quick to diagnose as a bad trans, which is a good thing I guess if it's under warranty.
With that said, my trans is still going strong at 140k. I think the towing package (external trans cooler) really helps out the longevity. |
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| BrianV |
That's not concrete data, it's consumer reports.
I'd use the word "rare" lightly. I'd think any car forum where more than 2 users have had a tranny problem on such a young car would be abnormal. It seems 01-03 are more affected than 04-06, but there's also an age difference and wear difference.
Also, the same transmission from the 01-02 MDX has been in the Pilot for years without any problem which is just spooky weird. |
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| BrianV |
quote:
Originally posted by ocuriel
I think that rumble strip feel is normal if you are in d5.
If the trans shifts into 5th gear and you are going at lower speeds then the 5th gear is intended for, it will make a rumble noise until it reaches proper speed.
Ever driven a manual trans and shifted into higher gear then what is it suppose to be in? It will do the same thing.
Acura dealers are very quick to diagnose as a bad trans, which is a good thing I guess if it's under warranty.
With that said, my trans is still going strong at 140k. I think the towing package (external trans cooler) really helps out the longevity.
I recall a thread here where one of the more vocal people on this subject said that from collecting data, it did NOT appear the tranny cooler helped. Tranny failures were also NOT more common in warmer clients, and driving style did not affect it.
Like I said, this is just a spooky thing since there's such a lack of data. Generally when a car has such a major problem there are more facts, like XYZ car's transmission is not that strong, if you drive it too hard it'll break, etc. We have no specific data as to what conditions increase the probability of breakage.
I tend to disagree with that argument since it seems like some people's trannies last a long time and others go through 2-3 trannies in a short time (which makes you think its the driver and/or something else in the car causing the repeat failures). I think it is related to conditions, but I"m just not sure which. Like I said, we drive ours soft since it's so slow anyhow and ours runs like brand new (engine and tranny). We do live in Texas and it does get HOT. Also, the tranny fluid has been replaced (4 fill-drain-fill) roughly every 30-35k miles. |
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| phins2rt |
| Same kind of issues with the 2nd gen 5 speed TL transmissions. Some people had no problems and others would be on multiple transmissions. Some folks on that forum said the cars needed to be driven hard or the trans would fail!:confused: There were no patterns that could be discerned. |
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| RN7676 |
I should probably clarify my use of 'rumblestrip'. I picked up that word on this forum which may not be the best description of my personal situation.
Mine is not a 'bogged down' noise commonly associated with going to slow in a high gear.
Mine is more of a light grinding sound. It really sounds like gears not synching up. It is not a smooth metal scraping sound but more of a serrated sound like something with teeth or edges rubbing against something else.
Sounds something like running a stick down a picket fence really fast. Only its a metal on metal sound.
I suspect it is the electronic overdrive or torque converter lockup not engaging correctly.
I'd call mine a grinding sound but I got pulled into the local dialect and said 'rumblestrip' ! :-)
Anyways it's really hard to verbalize a weird noise. If I get any detailed info on the failure out of the service tech or service rep I'll post it here. Since they are replacing the transmission I doubt they will take it apart and investiate anything. They'll probably just remove it and ship it back to Acura or some other transmission buyer for refurb without any further investigation.
I'm also interested in seeing the price numbers for all this which I'll report back here. My prior warranty invoices always showed the price numbers even though there was no charge to me. |
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| BillHeart |
Well I have yet to see one go bad in an 04-06, granted I don't work in service.
We move about 15 04-06s a month, have yet to see one with a trans issue. |
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| BrianV |
quote:
Originally posted by RN7676
I should probably clarify my use of 'rumblestrip'. I picked up that word on this forum which may not be the best description of my personal situation.
Mine is not a 'bogged down' noise commonly associated with going to slow in a high gear.
Mine is more of a light grinding sound. It really sounds like gears not synching up. It is not a smooth metal scraping sound but more of a serrated sound like something with teeth or edges rubbing against something else.
Sounds something like running a stick down a picket fence really fast. Only its a metal on metal sound.
I suspect it is the electronic overdrive or torque converter lockup not engaging correctly.
I'd call mine a grinding sound but I got pulled into the local dialect and said 'rumblestrip' ! :-)
Anyways it's really hard to verbalize a weird noise. If I get any detailed info on the failure out of the service tech or service rep I'll post it here. Since they are replacing the transmission I doubt they will take it apart and investiate anything. They'll probably just remove it and ship it back to Acura or some other transmission buyer for refurb without any further investigation.
I'm also interested in seeing the price numbers for all this which I'll report back here. My prior warranty invoices always showed the price numbers even though there was no charge to me.
The grinding noise is definitely bad. I still don't know what people mean by rumblestrip; I imagine it's the sound it makes when you drive over a rumblestrip, but I've never heard it. I thought I had a TC or tranny problem because in D5 at lower speeds the car would occasionally surge or buck, but that was fixed with the egr port cleaning. |
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| BrianV |
quote:
Originally posted by BillHeart
Well I have yet to see one go bad in an 04-06, granted I don't work in service.
We move about 15 04-06s a month, have yet to see one with a trans issue.
When I was diagnosing my EGR port issues with the head service guy at our dealer in Austin, I told him I was unsure if I wanted to keep the vehicle because of all the bad stuff I heard. He assured me that he's seen MDX trannies fail, it's nothing like the rate of the CL/TL and that he has only seen a few in all his years there. He said that it's not unusual based on the mileages of the cars and that it's similar to other Acuras not affected by any known issues (like the RSX).
It instilled a little confidence in me as did taking his recommendation on getting the EGR ports cleared.
To the earlier post about driving hard, I really think that's the factor. I imagine the TL/CLs are driven much harder.
Going back to one of my earlier points about Honda/Acura; in the 90s I had a lot of friends into the racing of Hondas. I myself had a 94 Integra GSR which was manual so I never had any tranny problems (clutch and throwout bearing but never gear). However, many of my friends with Civics and Accords had slushbox problems around 80k. These were not cars with serious mods, maybe just intakes or bolt-on exhausts, nothing to make the tranny work extra hard. However, they would drive like maniacs. Almost everyone needed a rebuild by 100k, whereas three of my friends with different makes (Camrys, Maximas, even a Dodge Neon) never had problems.
We really baby our MDX, I can't imagine anyone driving it easier than we do, and we live in a pretty rural area. I average 21mpg in combined driving around Austin but very little stop signs and traffic lights on my main commuting roads; perhaps that has a lot to do with our success. |
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| RN7676 |
quote:
He assured me that he's seen MDX trannies fail, it's nothing like the rate of the CL/TL and that he has only seen a few in all his years there.
I'll add to that. My service rep who rode with me to hear the problem said he had never heard anything like it. He said it would go to one of their "heavy equipment techs" who work on the hard stuff like engines and transmissions. When he called me back later he said that himself, the service tech, and some 3rd guy all went and drove it together because they had not heard anything like it either. The way my service rep told me the story it sounded like they were using my MDX as an education platform! .... Weird. I prefer not to have problems that are so unusual. So they said it was a torque converter failure. They didn't have time to remove the transmission, pull the torque converter and inspect it. So that must have been a guess based on the sound it was making and their experiance.
I didn't buy my MDX new, so I don't know how the prior owner drove it. It did have all of it's scheduled maintenance for whatever thats worth.
It did not have a trailer hitch. The transmission stories scared me so bad that when shopping I actually passed up one MDX because it had a trailer hitch and I had no idea what the prior owner was towing with it .... and I knew another would come along soon enough.
Other than towing or driving very very hard I'm not sure how the owner could abuse it too bad. ..... hmm, reminds me of a time I saw a guy doing 'neutral slams' in a rented minivan at an import drag race event. You floor it to the rev limiter in neutral then yank it into drive. Maybe my prior owner was doing that! That might be fun with the VTM locked on some snow or ice. I'm too old and cheap for that crap now but I bet it might be interesting (unless the electronic trans is smart enough to lock you out of drive over certain rpms).
I guess it seems to be random. Across all units built failures are probably pretty rare.
Maybe I sould have bought that one with the trailer hitch! |
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| pianoman41 |
quote:
Originally posted by BrianV
That's not concrete data, it's consumer reports.
I'd use the word "rare" lightly. I'd think any car forum where more than 2 users have had a tranny problem on such a young car would be abnormal. It seems 01-03 are more affected than 04-06, but there's also an age difference and wear difference.
Two users is a statistical insignificance. Remember, a majority of (any) forum users join or make their first post when they encounter a problem or bad service. They say for every one complaint you read online, figure there are one hundred people who never bothered to find a forum because they are not having problems. It's human nature--far more people are likely to complain than compliment.
I've been on various Acura forums since 2001 and as a 2nd gen TL-S owner on my second transmission I am intimately familiar with the infamous Acura/Honda tranny problem. Even with the ridiculous amounts of transmission failures on the 2nd gen TLs, the overall failure rate is still in the low double digits percentage-wise, which does make it a 'rare' occurrence. True, in the industry that is a horrendous failure rate, and on the forums it is relatively common to hear about, but strictly by the numbers it is still relatively rare.
As for the '05 MDX tranny failure rate, it is probably right in line with the acceptable industry rate, as the reporting of said failures here (and elsewhere) is minimal at best. As jhue pointed out, the '01-'03 failure rate was much higher than the '05+, which coincides with the new transmission design Acura developed for the '05+ MY, shared by the Pilot and Honda Ridgeline.
The failure of the '01-'03 trannys had to do with the failure of the 2nd and/or 3rd gear clutch packs, and had absolutely nothing to do with the torque converter.Since RN7676's failure was the torque converter, if I was a betting man I would bet heavily that his failure was a statistically acceptable failure of that part.
That's no consolation for him, but it should be of no consequence to other '05+ owners. |
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| BrianV |
quote:
Originally posted by pianoman41
Two users is a statistical insignificance. Remember, a majority of (any) forum users join or make their first post when they encounter a problem or bad service. They say for every one complaint you read online, figure there are one hundred people who never bothered to find a forum because they are not having problems. It's human nature--far more people are likely to complain than compliment.
I've been on various Acura forums since 2001 and as a 2nd gen TL-S owner on my second transmission I am intimately familiar with the infamous Acura/Honda tranny problem. Even with the ridiculous amounts of transmission failures on the 2nd gen TLs, the overall failure rate is still in the low double digits percentage-wise, which does make it a 'rare' occurrence. True, in the industry that is a horrendous failure rate, and on the forums it is relatively common to hear about, but strictly by the numbers it is still relatively rare.
As for the '05 MDX tranny failure rate, it is probably right in line with the acceptable industry rate, as the reporting of said failures here (and elsewhere) is minimal at best. As jhue pointed out, the '01-'03 failure rate was much higher than the '05+, which coincides with the new transmission design Acura developed for the '05+ MY, shared by the Pilot and Honda Ridgeline.
The failure of the '01-'03 trannys had to do with the failure of the 2nd and/or 3rd gear clutch packs, and had absolutely nothing to do with the torque converter.Since RN7676's failure was the torque converter, if I was a betting man I would bet heavily that his failure was a statistically acceptable failure of that part.
That's no consolation for him, but it should be of no consequence to other '05+ owners.
Good post. Isn't the 03 tranny different than the 01/02? Is it different than the 04-06; I didn't think it was.
I agree with your statement regarding forums and how they don't represent actuality but this is a very small forum. From what I've read on here, the 03s don't appear to be a whole lot better than the 01-02s; there are a lot of threads of 03 failures here and no one acts surprised. I agree the 04-06 is surprisingly, hence why I was surprised with this post, but your right, it's probably the TC. However, knowing Honda autos I wouldn't be surprised if 04-06s start having issues too now that they're getting a little older. |
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| shootist |
quote:
Originally posted by pianoman41
Two users is a statistical insignificance. Remember, a majority of (any) forum users join or make their first post when they encounter a problem or bad service. ..
Agreed. We've also heard that even a "good ol' reliable" transmission failure rate is expected to be 2% to 3%. If there are 70,000 MDX's per model year (?) that's 2,000 really pissed off owners looking to vent on an online forum.
That's what warranties are all about : Crap happens, and at a statisticaly predictable rate. It's only when you get the anomalies, like the 01-02 MDX trans design, or an imminent danger- like the wheels falling off Dadge pickups, that action must be taken.
I know you're upset about the failure, but may I say you were very fortunate that it happened within warranty, rather than 15,000 miles from now?
And while I'm ranting, I hate it when somebody complains that their vehicle with only 150,000 miles had a failure. Since when did cars last forever? |
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| RN7676 |
This probably helps confirm it is a statistical exception. My service guy called today. My MDX will not be ready because the new transmission did not arrive Thursday as expected. Honda put a hold on it because it was an unusual order for an 05 with 41k miles. Someone in the Honda bureaucracy had to speak to the lead service tech before they released it. It is now expected to arrive Friday afternoon with my MDX probably ready Monday afternoon.
I'm not mad or upset about the failure and I agree that's what warranties are designed for. I just wanted to post it for discussion and future searchers.
I guess I'm just the owner of the statistical exception this time.
I'm ok with the delay. My loaner is a 08 TSX w/Navi with only 2,000 miles on it. I've been having fun driving it and I'm fine keeping it over the weekend! |
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| shootist |
quote:
Originally posted by RN7676
I guess I'm just the owner of the statistical exception this time.
If it helps, I've been on the receiving end of "statistical anomolies" twice- new trans in a Ford Explorer with 4,000 miles, and new engine block in a BMW 633 with 650 miles. That was long ago, and I was somewhat less calm than I am these days. |
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| Markedoc |
FWIW, the 2005 Buying Guide rated the reliability of the 2001 and 2002 transmissions as MUCH BETTER THAN AVERAGE.
In the 2006 guide, they rated the 2001 and 2002 transmissions Better than Average.
In the 2007 guide, they rated the 2001 and 2002 tranmissions Much Worse than Avg.
Pretty useless information given the time lag - these transmissions were crapping out at a fast rate LONG before 2007.
Bottom line is, I wouldn't put a lot of weight into their ratings on the Acura transmission. By the time the collect the survey data and get around to publishing it, an awful lot of time goes by. |
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