| O-TownMDX |
| Has anyone purchased the phillips HID conversion kit for their MDX? |
|
|
| gokings55 |
| Sounds interesting, do you have more information you could provide? Thanks. |
|
|
| TheWorm |
Guys,
Do a  ... there are a number of threads on this already. |
|
|
| ANDY |
| O TOWN im thinking about it are talking about xentron kit by philips?i have emailed www.autolampms-online.com they say its not street legal... |
|
|
| Rodzir |
In those past postings the problem is there is no auto leveling feature. On the other hand half the bulb upgrades that are talked about are not either. I looked at it and it looks really cool. Most of them are plug and play. They use only 35 watts! Now if you go to the Sylvania http://www.sylvania.com/xenarc/prodinfo.htm
these are the latest and greatest out there. The aftermarket kits are not out yet but they always get to market. The older model you can find as low as $550 for the set if you search around. This sight give good info and installation instructions to see what you are getting into.
http://www.hidkits.com/
Happy hunting! |
|
|
| SteveMitchell |
With respect Rodzir, auto-leveling of HIDs are only required in Europe and Canada, and currently not required in the USA. If they were, then our TLs and RLs would have the auto-leveling feature. Toyota (Lexus), Mercedes, and BMW are the only mfgs that I know of who are installing auto-leveling for HIDs in the United States for their line-ups.
Regarding the straight legality of HID conversions to vehicles that did not originally come with HIDs installed - there actually may be DOT regs that prohibit them, but from an enforceability standpoint, it's really a state-regulated thing, at least here in Texas.
I purchased my set of HIDs from HIDKITs, so I agree with your link. HIDKITs and I had a great deal of communications and technical discussions, and I'll bet that their replacments are the CLOSEST to the 9006 physical spec of 31.5mm axial distance mounting-plane-to-lightsource-center than any other on the market. Their additional features of weatherproofing the connection, as well as the the true plug-n-play aspect of installation make them a great deal. |
|
|
| O-TownMDX |
Steve
How do you like your HID conversion? Any Problems with blinding on coming traffic? Who makes the HID kit you have. |
|
|
| SteveMitchell |
Actually, most of the kits that are sold by HIDKITS use the D2S bulb. In normal HID designs meant for this type, this HID capsule depends almost exclusively on the reflector to do the beam-spread shaping and horizontal-cutoff (The key element in the prevention of blinding oncoming drivers). The D2S is used mostly in "projection" type applications - where you actually see a convex lens for a low-beam headlight. If left by itself without the reflector or lens, it acts more like an HB3/9005 Halogen - a high-beam.
The reflector on the MDX does fairly well on the beam spread with this bulb type, but since this reflector's focal point was originally designed for a light source that's significantly smaller (9006/HB4 filament diameter vs. D2S/D2R capsule diameter), some aspects of the beam are not that great, like the aforementioned horizontal-cutoff. Even with this in mind, these original D2Ss were installed on my MDX for over 3 months, and I was flashed only once by an oncoming driver. I didn't have any further problems after that.
Most folks would be satisfied with that, but I'm a little AR (he says euphemistically;) ), so Mark and I did some experimenting, and he built a set of D2Rs for me to try. D2R capsules have part of the horizontal-cutoff built into the way they're designed. While the cutoff is not as sharply delineated as the standard 9006 halogen horizontal-cutoff when installed on my MDX, the cutoff was effective enough for me to match beam placement almost exactly with the original halogen counterpart - Similar beam spread and cutoff, but 3.5 times brighter at half the power.
Since I don't want to appear to be doing actual advertising for HIDKITS, please refer to the link that Rodzir put in his email. |
|
|
| Drew |
Not only are they illegal but glaring. HID bulbs need to be specially orientated to the headlamps and it is impossible to do that unless the headlamp assembly was designed for HID applications from the get-go; this applies to even the so called "beam corrected" kits. Anyone who says otherwise is not telling the truth. Consider the following before making a purchase. D2R HID bulbs are designed for free-form headlamps, whereas D2S bulbs are designed for projector based headlamps.
Here is the NHTSA's explanation after studying the issues:
"Another disturbing trend in this look-a-like phenomenon is the substitution of OEM filament headlamp bulbs with aftermarket HID conversion bulbs. The desire is to achieve the look and achieve the more robust performance of HIDs. While not designed to be interchangeable, some aftermarket companies are substantially altering the HID bulb bases or providing adapters so that
the HID bulbs can be inserted in headlamps designed for filament bulbs. The consequence of making these substitutions is to adversely affect safety. Filament headlamps are optically designed for the volume of light and filament placement and other critical dimensions and performance that OEM filament bulbs have. The HID conversions result in two to three times the volume of light and potentially imprecise arc placement. Such conversions often result in beam patterns that behave nothing like the original filament beam pattern, cannot be reliably aimed, and have many times the permitted glare intensity. In informal
conversations with persons who have tested such conversions, the light intensity on one at a point aimed toward oncoming drivers was 22 times the allowable intensity limit. Another lamp was more than 7 times too intense. With poor HID bulb and arc placement, the glare intensity could be significantly worse. Thus, the use of these conversions could be yet another source of the glare problems about which many drivers have complained." |
|
|
| SteveMitchell |
Drew - Your post for the most part is accurate, however, the NHTSA doesn't define/enforce the law or regulations, they merely report. In reading what you graciously supplied, it appears to me that the NHTSA was mainly concerned with the HID kits out there that have been poorly-executed, and are flawed in their designs (if there ever WAS a "design" with some of them), and the horrible glare such installations can inflict on other drivers. The issues mostly involve the critical light-source positioning that I was also referring to in my previous post.
I've done a great deal of research into this subject, and after doing some computer-based 3D reflector-modeling on my own, I came to feel that it was possible to emulate the beam-pattern produced by the standard HB4/9006 halogen bulb inside the MDX's low-beam reflector using an HID capsule instead.
In looking at the original HB4 specifications, filed initially on 3/07/96 as Docket No. 93-11-N01-008, Replaceable Light Source Type HB4, there are some key dimensions that play critical roles in the appearance and shape of the beam pattern. This bulb, which later attained the "9006" designation as well, was designed to use a filament that is mounted axially along the length of the bulb. The distance from the axial center of the filament to the inside contact point on the base is a very critical element. This distance essentially sets the exact position of the axial center of the filament, and has a tremendous effect on the beam pattern produced by the bulb/reflector combination.
In the HB4/9006 bulb, this distance is precisely 31.5 mm. All other engineering conventions are assumed; simple things like keeping the filament exactly at a 90º tangent to the base.
The D2R/D2S bulb's specification, filed initially on 7/29/96 by Philips as Docket No.'s 93-11-N01-010/011, Replaceable Light Source Type D2R/D2S, shows the equivalent referenced distance to be only 27.1 mm precisely. Once again, the distance from the axial center of the HID capsule to the inside contact point on the base.
It's fairly obvious to most folk that you can't just stick this D2S/R bulb on a homemade 9006-like bracket, and expect glorious Xenon light to flood the streets. The bulbs that are installed in my MDX match the dimensions and filament placement of the HB4/9006 halogen counterpart EXACTLY, given the limitations set forth by the fact that the HID capsule is considerably bigger in diameter at its center than the halogen filament. This could create a slight problem with beam-focus, which is easily remedied via the headlamp position adjustment as described in the MDX service manual. (In practice, after installing the D2Rs, little deviation from the factory-default MDX/halogen position was necessary)
Anyway, later on after experimenting with the projector-type bulb, I decided that I'd prefer to go with the D2Rs and their inherent beam pattern design, with the better cutoff.
When measured EXACTLY 25 feet from a vertical screen, the beam cutoff on my MDX is within .2 of an inch of the 2.1 inches below the headlamp centerline as called for in the MDX service manual. |
|
|
| ANDY |
steve great informative post it has shed light in my search for my replacement.steve what kind of kit did you get from hidkit.com to go with your d2r bulb?are these made in germany or korean made
im also worried about the beam pattern,so you did the adjustment yourself?.....later |
|
|
| marne |
I am ignorant but intrigued about HIDs, and have been closely reading the HID-related posts on this site for some time. While many posts have been subjective (if not outright emotional), your detailed, fact-packed post has been the most interesting so far. Many thanks for your quantitative information!!!
I like the idea of HIDs -- whiter light for better night-time vision -- and I would like to have them in my soon-to-be-delivered '02 'X. But I want to do it right, both to achieve the highest level of functionality from my side of the windshield, and the lowest level of annoyance of oncoming motorist on the other side.
Given your knowledge on the subject, please address one other HID topic -- auto-leveling. What is the purpose of auto-leveling? What are the parts of an auto-leveler and how do they work? Are after-market HID-kits available with auto-leveling? Why should (or needn't) auto-leveling be part of a HID system in my MDX?
Thanks in advance, Steve!
--Marne |
|
|
| Rodzir |
Thanks for all the info. Sorry if i gave incorrect info. The RX300 does auto level while the QX4 has a manual knob to change level on the dash. Would love to see pictures of beam pattern and your setup!!!!!!
Thanks Again! |
|
|
| SteveMitchell |
Hmm. Quite frankly, I've never seen an HID auto-leveling unit up close, and I haven't seen any mechanical drawings for one either.
From my limited engineering experience, I'd imagine from a design standpoint that one method would be to have the reflector/headlamp unit mounted on some sort of pivotable support that allows a type of motion that would cause movement of the reflector assembly along the vertical "Y-axis" (up and down, facing forward, on the engine end). This motion could control how far and how high the HID-beam travels out in front of the car.
There would then have to be some sort of level-detection unit, possibly a semiconductor device connected through a feedback loop to a high-speed stepper motor or similar. This motor could maybe use a rack-pinion assembly that varies the position of the reflector assembly's vertical "Y-axis". This would improve the chances that "bounce" from a bump in the pavement could be caught in time as to not allow the HID-beam to blind oncoming drivers even for a moment. It would also help in the situation of cresting a hill, facing oncoming traffic.
In that situation without auto-leveling, the bump would raise the car's front-end ever-so slightly, but enough to effect the HID-beam's travel/height quite a bit actually, and the low-beam would pop into an oncoming driver's eyes.
(TLs and RLs do this all of the time ;))
With auto-leveling, the raising of the car's front-end would affect the level-detection device, however slight. Based on the direction of the "out-of-level" condition, the sensor would determine which direction to move the reflector assembly, and use the feedback loop to/from the motor to do so quickly and precisely. In this case, it would move slightly downward, to avoid blinding that same oncoming driver. These units would have to operate very fast, and carefully as to not overshoot.
I'm not a mechanical engineer, so this might not be accurate, but it is a thought.
Even with this simple design, I doubt it very seriously that any aftermarket HID conversion kits would offer this feature. In envisioning the mechanics, I'd think that the 'leveling' assembly that moves would have to be independent of the plastic headlight cover, as to not show any external movement. If the entire assembly, including the clear plastic cover moved, it would look weird, and be even more expensive to implement, I'm sure. |
|
|
| rspitz |
Sorry if these are ignorant questions, but from looking over the hidkit.com website compared to some of the others mentioned, does anyone think it is a big deal that the ballasts be made by a named company like phillips versus a no name, like what it looks like on the hidkit.com website?
Also is there any difference in the quality of different xenon bulbs put in by different vendors? |
|
|
| donsev |
SteveMitchell,
I am not an engineer, but can offer an end-user point of view on the HID auto-leveling lamps on my IS300. I believe that most of your assumptions are probably correct in that "one method would be to have the reflector/headlamp unit mounted on some sort of pivotable support that allows a type of motion that would cause movement of the reflector assembly along the vertical "Y-axis".
When turning on the headlights, you can see (by the beam pattern) the lights go through a full range of motion and then settle on the proper angle for the current passenger load & road/driveway grade. I have never stood outside the car when someone else has turned on the lights so I can not tell for certain what exactly is moving but it is probably just the back of the reflector (i.e. the design of the headlight cover I think precludes the whole unit from moving).
But given the time it takes to make this adjustment (~ .5 sec - 1 sec), I do not think it is meant to adjust for "bumps in the road" (that would have to be done within milliseconds??) but for changes in the load of the vehicle (heavy weight in trunk etc.)
Having said that I can say that I have never been aware of ANY changes in the beam angle while driving (which either means that it does happen very quickly and I just can't detect it, or that it doesn't happen at all once underway)
Just $.02 |
|
|
| donsev |
SteveMitchell,
Sorry, should have included this question in previous post:
You mention:
"so Mark and I did some experimenting, and he built a set of D2Rs for me to try" and "The bulbs that are installed in my MDX match the dimensions and filament placement of the HB4/9006 halogen counterpart EXACTLY"
Does that mean the you have a custom configuration from HIDKITS? If so, how could one go about ordering the exact setup that your have? In reading your posts (great research job!), am I correct in concluding that you are satisfied with the beam pattern, light intensity, and beam cutoff of that configuration? |
|
|
| SteveMitchell |
Hi Folks - It's sincerely not my intention to turn this thread into an advertisement for HIDKITS, so I'll try to relay my experiences w/o promotion or listing their web address, etc..
rspitz:
Yes, I thought about the fact that their ballasts are no-name, but I can tell you that they're built like a brick outhouse. The cables are high-tension, rubber, and wrapped in high-quality cable wrap. The leads going to the bulb-assembly are insulated and rubber-sealed.
Additionally, this vendor is confident enough in his product to offer Credit-Card sales. I'm an Internet Consumer, and have spent untold $$$$ on the Web, and let me tell you, CC Chargeback has the potential of being your best friend.
According to Tim @ hondacuraworld, Acura uses OSRAM/SYLVANIA Xenarc HID Lighting Systems. The bulbs that HIDKITS uses are Xenarc as well.
donsev:
Thanks much for the insight. I should have realized that the weight of such an assembly might preclude really quick movements. Maybe they're targeting situations more like the "cresting a hill" scenario.
Regarding "customization" - No. It's just that Mark and I exchanged over 50 pieces of email regarding the beam-pattern-cutoff subject, engineering specs and such, and in the end, his product matched the engineering specs for the 9006/HB4. In fact his product always produced a good beam-pattern, but now it's confirmed. During our discussion, I expressed concern about the absence of a really effective beam-cutoff with the "wide-open" D2Ss. Somehow or another, I got on this kick of wanting to try the D2Rs in my system. The D2Rs have a masking system integrated into the manufacture of the bulb itself. Mark built a set, I tried 'em, and liked 'em.
Look at his website at the beam-pattern examples - they look like high-beams, and actually match pretty well. Imagine a beam-pattern with what would appear to be an inverted "hump" pressing down into the top of the pattern about 30%. Also, remember from my previous posts that the HID capsule is quite a bit larger than a standard halogen filament, so focus for the cutoff will be "soft", and not as sharply delineated. But the cutoff using the D2Rs is most assuredly better than the "wide-open" D2Ss.
Concerning my statement: The bulbs that are installed in my MDX match the dimensions and filament placement of the HB4/9006 halogen counterpart EXACTLY. That could be misleading. The point is that at that time, I was being a little on the defensive side to "Drew". I meant to relate that all HIDKITS HID bulb assemblies should structurally match the halogen bulb type they replace in the conversion process in regards to light-source placement. |
|
|
| O-TownMDX |
I spoke with the guys at hidkits.com and they were very helpful.
I mentioned Steve with the MDX in the conversation and he knew exactly who I was talking about and he had nothing but good things to say about Steve. I asked about the D2R instead of the D2S, he said not a problem to do, he said just to remind him. He said to order the setup that Steve had done on his MDX which something like 31.5 (what that is I have no idea) and they would make the adjustments. Actually he said that Steve was so helpful they are doing most of the setups at the 31.5.
Good job Steve. I know where I'm getting my conversion kit from when my MDX gets here. |
|
|
| SteveMitchell |
EEEEK!! I have given out incorrect information here in this thread, and I need to correct it
In my zeal and excitement with the conversation at hand, I neglected to carefully review the content of my posts, and my notes for that matter.
During my email conversations with HIDKITS, I told you that I became enamored with the thought of using D2Rs in my HID conversion instead of D2Ss to see if it were possible to obtain a more effective beam-cutoff to insure better road manners. I also remember in these conversations with HIDKITS that we discussed that the D2Rs were built with masking elements integrated into them to more tightly control the beam-pattern in the HID-reflector. It was also discussed that these masks on the D2Rs were designed to be used with a reflector specifically designed for them.
Since the reflector housings on the MDX were designed for a halogen 9006/HB4, Mark surmised that it would probably be a better idea to try and emulate the top-mask found on the 9006/HB4 bulb rather than attempt to adapt a D2R to a different type of reflector. So Mark effectively masked the top of a D2S, and slightly modified the mask's coverage area in order to achieve a like-angular relationship with the HID capsule as the 9006/HB4 top mask achieves with the halogen filament.
I kept missing or ignoring this fact in our thread here, and somehow convinced myself that I was using D2Rs, when in fact, they are "masked" D2Ss.
Sorry for the confusion, and believe me, I'm paying for it with plenty of embarrassment. |
|
|
| rspitz |
So is the 31.5mm axial distance just to keep a horitontal cutoff where the existing lights have it, and not blind oncoming?
Also, could someone explain the physical difference between the D2S and D2R lamps?
Thanks |
|
|
|
