| bareyb |
| Lets get down to it. These two vehicles are optimized for different things, have a different look and are appointed much differently. The biggest argument I hear against the Lexus is the price. I'm in the market for a new SUV and cost is really not THAT much of an object for me. I just want the BEST vehicle. So. I'm curious... Based purely on speculation of what the GX470 will be... If money weren't an object which one would YOU buy today (based on your needs and priorities) and why? |
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| yhlin |
We probably will still stick with MDX. Our experience with
RX300 was not that great. When we went to the show floor
to see RX300, my wife was playing around with the sunglass
holder and it fell :mad:
After that we have doubt on RX300 as well as Lexus's build
quality ... |
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| ByeByeChrysler |
Honda (Acura) has the reputation.
Go for the MDX. |
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| bareyb |
If build quality and reputation are top factors I hate to tell you but Lexus would probably come out on top of that one... Every customer satisfaction and quality survey I've ever seen has Lexus at the very top. Going back so many years I can't remember the last time another badge beat them. Of all the reasons I expected to see I must admit build quality and reputation never even entered my mind! :D
One reason I am considering both brands is because of their stellar reputation with regard to reliability and quality. The Lexus is obviously going to have higher quality materials due to the fact that it costs thousands more. On the other hand, it's built for serious off road capability whereas the Acura is a unibody structure which presumably will allow it to perform better on road. There are also major styling differences inside and out. Completely different philosophy. It's a tough call since I don't do much serious off roading. Still, that Lexus has nicer materials and is going to be more hearty with regard to bottoming out, overall ruggedness, features, and materials quality. Is giving up some ride quality (presumably) worth getting a tougher, more highly appointed vehicle? What statement do the two designs make? It's a tough call even if price is not a consideration... Or is it? What would you do? |
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| rlm32 |
| Lexus has one of the best car build quality in the business . As a matter of fact, their build quality and car interiors are benchmark in the industry. Plus you get a REAL dealer with nice customer support and appreciation of your business. Long term durability should be at least the same (if not better) to Acura. Don't get me wrong, I love my 'X, but all the same (including price), Ill take the Lexus.;) |
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| vip9 |
Lexus certainly has a "reputation" which far exceeds that of Acura.
However, until I have a first-hand experience on this subject, those quotation marks shall remain. I once thought Acura was "reputable"... :(
As far as the original question in the topic of this thread - money is not the only MAIN objective.
When I was shopping for an SUV close to 2 years ago, I could have had ML 320 similarly equipped to a base MDX for virtually the same money as MDX @ MSRP. After test-driving both cars within 30 minutes from each other, I thought MB drove like a tank in comparison with the MDX.
I honestly don't care about "true" wood vs "plood" or Bose vs Acura sound system. Handling/feel + very smart 3rd row for me was the deciding factor.
From what I hear, 3rd row in Lexus is much less useful than that in MDX. Do you need the 3rd row??? No? - Get X5 4.4 - the handling alone will make you a proud owner of BMW for life. Etc, etc, etc... |
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| MDXtrous |
MDX for two reasons:
1. More car-like suspension
2. More useful 3rd row seat design
This above the fact that the Lexus is made with better materials, better reliability (probably). |
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| rlm32 |
As far as suspensions, Lexus is characterized by soft, read car-like suspensions across their product line. In fact, sometimes they are criticized for being too soft on some of their more sporty models. Its all speculation at this point, but I don't see why the GX470 would be any different.
Actually, the RX300 was the first SUV with true car-like handling and luxury, that's why it was such a best seller. Now the RX300 has fallen behind to other better designed SUVs including the MDX and X5 (for reasons we all know). |
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| MDXtrous |
quote:
Originally posted by rlm32
As far as suspensions, Lexus is characterized by soft, read car-like suspensions across their product line. In fact, sometimes they are criticized for being too soft on some of their more sporty models. Its all speculation at this point, but I don't see why the GX470 would be any different.
Actually, the RX300 was the first SUV with true car-like handling and luxury, that's why it was such a best seller. Now the RX300 has fallen behind to other better designed SUVs including the MDX and X5 (for reasons we all know).
From all that I've heard, the GX470 was designed to handle more rugged terrains than the RX300. It's supposed to be more "truck/off-roader" than the RX300. That's what I based my assumption that the MDX would be more carlike. |
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| bareyb |
| It looks like most folks that took the poll voted that they would pick the Lexus over the Acura if price were not a consideration. I'd like to hear from some more of those folks... Why did you choose the Lexus? |
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| sgtglok |
| again and again, I would rephrase the question! Actually, it would not be question at all, if MDX was built by Lexus, i.e. kept the styling, power, etc = the 'X', but had Lexus's quality AND Acura's cost & equipment?! :2: :2: :2: |
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| Robyjo |
I used to own a 4runner and I know that Toyota/Lexus is known for their reliability. I gave up my 4runner because of serious engine troubles at a juvenile 107K miles. So there's a lemon in every bunch, because I know many 4runners that have served their owners flawlessly. I think that Honda/Toyota are neck and neck with reliability, so I don't think that would sway my choice in this instance.
I do think the Lexus will have nicer leather appointment and even more attention detail than our X's. That said, there's one feature Acura can never have that the Lexus has: prestige. While both carmakers are known for their quality, reliability and luxury, Lexus has come out strong as a contender with the big boys--BMW, Mercedes. So from a purely brand-appeal viewpoint, the Lexus has the edge.
In the end, I'm with vip--if you don't care about room, and price really isn't THAT much of a variable--go for the X5.
Rob :31: |
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| renov8r |
Who the hell needs to drive across rocks for hours at a time?
Gimme a modern efficient vehicle anytime.
Toyota has "refined" their V8 to the nth degree but it is still way more displacement than any regular passenger vehicle needs. Every time I see some goof commuting/kiddie running in a LX 4X0 I think "disgusting pig"....
Ditto for Suburbabs/Yukons/Tahoes/Expys/Excurs/Naviagator/Explorer/RangeRovers/Gwagons...
All of those TRUCKS could lose about a thousand pounds and STILL be bloated behemoths!
Now don't misunderstand, I'm not a radical tree hugger. I even LIKE motorsports. But the shear BULK of these beasts is friggin' insane! They have to have "monster motors" to keep up with the flow of trafffic.
I fully expect to see a 'soccer mom' in a fully customized Peterbilt model 379 that has seating capacity for nine instead of a 'sleeper', a single rear axle , no dualies or fith wheel and the biggest "brush guards" none to man....  |
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| sgtglok |
quote:
It looks like most folks that took the poll voted that they would pick the Lexus over the Acura if price were not a consideration. I'd like to hear from some more of those folks... Why did you choose the Lexus?
I guess it would be the build quality, reliability and service excellence. People payed 'bout 40K for MDX and want the matching treatment, which Acura lacks completely! It remains my guess since I have yet to test Lexus's, but...
From my experience:
TLC is a joke, I had to call for emergency assistance 2 times - once with flat, called TLC help line, waited 20 min to get SR on the phone, 30 min. had to answer all types of idiotic questions: when bought, where, color, mileage, etc.; then faced with 1.5 hour wait (in NYC, downtown?) before giving up and replaced the flat myself in 20 min.
Second time, was waxing the MDX and left the radio on and forgot to turn off the headlights! Drained the battery, couldn't start the MDX, called TLC. Waited for 40 min to get to SR, finally gave up and called AAA. The the truck came in 10 min (in Brooklyn).
IRRELEVANT TO THIS THREAD: the strange thing was that when the AAA truck showed up, I was able to start the MDX. Before, I tried multiple times (the battery wasn't completely drained), but every time it would fail. Then about 20-30 min. had passed (when I was on the phone with TLC waiting for help), then another 10 I spent with AAA, and another 10 - for truck to show up. Did the battery recharge? Did the computer shut off the ignition/sensor? MDX works in the misterious ways? |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by Robyjo
In the end, I'm with vip--if you don't care about room, and price really isn't THAT much of a variable--go for the X5.
Rob :31:
Actually I DO care about the room. I expect the Lexus will be on par with the Acura from a cargo room standpoint. It's narrower, but has a lower load floor. It's also about the same size generally speaking. It's not a behemoth. Considering it's lower weight I wouldn't be surprised if the V8 in the Lexus doesn't get 14-15 MPG around town. Most folks I have seen are getting 16-17 with the Acura so not that much difference there. Especially considering the new Acura will have a slightly larger engine and more horsepower which means it will proabably get less miles per gallon, closing the gap even furthur...
I also wouldn't buy a Bimmer because I highly value a reliable car and from what I've seen the X5 ain't. I live in Silicon Valley and tons of my friends have BMW's and they spend a fortune on maintenance. The warranty also isn't bumper to bumper. My friends one month old 320i just had the rear seat belt mechanism replaced (it has NEVER even been used) and guess who paid the bill? Not BMW that's for sure. He got to put $300.00 into a one month old car! THAT would have pissed me off too (he was livid). Lotsa loopholes in their warranty. The X5 also has very limited off road capability and not a whole lot of room inside. I also need the 3rd row seat (we have two kids). I wouldn't own any of the Mercedes models because the only Mercedes I owned was a piece of junk and the Mercedes M Class also suffers the same fate as the Lexus RX300... To me it may as well have a pink bow on it's rear. To me, it's a Soccer Mom car. The Acura is MUCH badder looking. Ialso like the look of the GX but in a different way. :D |
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| octavian |
| bareyb.....:D that's great....your reference to a pink bow on an RX300....I am 7 year Lexus owner who would have gone with an RX300 except for several things, one of which was, IMO, the very effeminate design and the fact that 87% (I took an informal pool heah in Dallas) of all the drivers I saw were soccer moms....not, to borrow a phrase from Jerry Seinfeld, that there is anything wrong with that.;) |
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| socalJD |
quote:
Originally posted by rlm32
As far as suspensions, Lexus is characterized by soft, read car-like suspensions across their product line. In fact, sometimes they are criticized for being too soft on some of their more sporty models. Its all speculation at this point, but I don't see why the GX470 would be any different.
Actually, the RX300 was the first SUV with true car-like handling and luxury, that's why it was such a best seller. Now the RX300 has fallen behind to other better designed SUVs including the MDX and X5 (for reasons we all know).
The GX470 is an upgraded Sequioa, and the Sequioa is built off the Tundra pickup frame & drivetrain, so it will clearly be more 'trucklike' in ride & handling, whereas the 'X is a unibody construction (like the RX300) - (You can't convince me that an LX470 rides better than a Landcruiser just because it's a Lexus) The GX has a one piece rear axle compared to the IRS in the 'X, so again no comparison in terms of ride or handling. If you look at the overall specs of a Sequioa, it is clearly longer, heavier and taller than the 'X, so even if you take $'s out of the equation, you're really comparing apples to oranges and it really depends upon an entirely different set of criteria in choosing one over the other . . . like Vip said, if money was NO object, I'd be driving the X5 4.6 and blow all the other suvs away (including the ML55) - there's a reason why their slogan is 'the ultimate driving machine' . . . but coming back down to reality, the 'X is a pleasant compromise & blend of alot of factors and really is in a class of it's own at this point in time. |
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| tigmd99 |
Hey all,
First off, Lexus GX470 is on a BRAND NEW platform. This platform will also be the new '03 4Runner. It is NOT on the Sequoia's platform!!!! It is likely that the GX470 will receive all of the latest Toyota manufacturing processes (e.g. low gap tolerances). In addition, it will likely have excellent crash-testing scores. Since it is also the NEXT Toyota Prado redesign, it will also be extremely capable in off-roading...like its older brother the LX470.
Now, with regard to ride and handling, in general, a rear independent suspension is superior to a solid axle. However, if you notice, on the LX470, it can pull very similar g's to the MDX. In addition, the Toyota Land Cruiser and LX470 has been well-known to provide an excellent ride. The LX470 has the Adaptive Suspension which provides a very smooth ride. In a comparo a while ago, the authors commented on how much better the LX470 ride compare to the Mercedes ML.
Frame-body is able to absorb much more punishment in off-roading and towing than a unibody. Same goes for the solid rear axle.
Ok...the engine of the GX has too much displacement...so what?? It is there because of an enormous amount of torque needed for off-roading and towing. It makes 80-90% of its torque as low as 1500 RPM. All of this power with DOHC for superior highway smoothness. Not one author ever mentioned that the 4.7L V8 lacked refinement/smoothness.
BTW, i don't think the GX will have any problems keeping up with traffic! :rolleyes:
Also, the GX is no larger than the MDX!! RENOV8R, what are you smoking these days??!! :confused:
The only valid point so far is the third-row seating design. The other points border on lunacy! :D Geez people, seriously, take the blindfolds off!
Thanks. |
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| mikel51 |
| I would have to drive both vehicles to make any sort of decision. The MDX was not on my short list when I started car shopping, but it moved to the top of my list after driving it. Before making my decision, I spent far too much time reading reviews and getting other people's opinions. Once I drove the cars, it became crystal clear. I think it is silly to decide which car to buy until you can check it out in person and see how it fits your personality. |
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| vicpai |
quote:
Originally posted by socalJD
The GX470 is an upgraded Sequioa, and the Sequioa is built off the Tundra pickup frame & drivetrain, so it will clearly be more 'trucklike' in ride & handling, whereas the 'X is a unibody construction (like the RX300) - (You can't convince me that an LX470 rides better than a Landcruiser just because it's a Lexus) The GX has a one piece rear axle compared to the IRS in the 'X, so again no comparison in terms of ride or handling
I have ridden in an LX 470 extensively and have to say that the ride is supremely comfortable, even in the back (even plusher than the MDX, which tends to be on the "firmer" side........all the automotive reviews that I've read mirror this opinion!!.......they have even said that the Honda Pilot rides "softer" than the MDX. Now if you're talking handling, then I would venture to say that the MDX probably handles better and more responsively, with a sportier feel. However, IMHO, the LX 470's ride is almost comparable to that of a luxury car like a big Lincoln......and it's VERY QUIET in there even at triple digit speeds
quote:
. . . like Vip said, if money was NO object, I'd be driving the X5 4.6 and blow all the other suvs away (including the ML55)
Yes, I guess you'd be "blowing all the other SUVS away on the RARE occasion when you're X5 is not in the workshop for repairs ;)
quote:
- there's a reason why their slogan is 'the ultimate driving machine' . . . but coming back down to reality, the 'X
I wouldn't buy an X5 or ML if they gave them to me for $10,000......regardless of how capable or fun-to-drive these vehicles are, there is simply no reason to buy this UNRELIABLE, LOW QUALITY TRASH |
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| socalJD |
I am the first to get on my soap box, so I will be the first to admit when I misspoke - the GX470 is very similar in size to the 'X, what threw me was the fact that the wheelbase is 3.5" longer so I thought the overall length was a missprint, and the GX is actually 2" narrower than the 'X - it is 200lbs heavier and that is probably attributed to the V8 and FT 4WD . . . however, since the 3rd row seats, heated seats, sunroof & roof rack are optional, the 5-10k more in cost has to be factored in. Bottom line remains, both SUVs offer different sets of advantages/disadvantages and should not be directly compared to each other . . . to each their own.
VicP, it is good we agree that we disagree - I never questioned the comfort or 'luxury' ride of the Lexus, I merely stated that it cannot be compared directly to the 'X, no doubt you have spent a great deal of time in an LX470 - however please expand on your distaste for Bimmers, I owned a 3 series coupe and a 5 series sedan and can categorically vouch for the sheer pleasure and pride to own and drive them. They were never problematic maintenance wise, but will admit that due to the german parts and mechanic skill needed that repairs run higher than your run of the mill chevy. BMWs hold their value well and their perceived image cannot be matched (watch how valets treat BMWs with a bit more caution and care than your typical import) The X5 got a bad rap for some early production issues, but I'll gamble that Bavaria got it right in it's 3rd year of production (unlike our fav whipping dog MB) If BMW made the 'X - I would buy it in a heartbeat, and like I said, if $ were no object, I would be tooling around in the 4.6 X5 and loving life . . . |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by socalJD
Bottom line remains, both SUVs offer different sets of advantages/disadvantages and should not be directly compared to each other . . . to each their own.
I'd venture to say that many folks such as myself would do just that. I'm looking for a family vehicle that has:
1. 3rd Row Seating
2. Has lots of safety features
3. Has a reasonable amount of cargo room
4. Is midsized
5. Is luxurious inside and nice looking outside
6. Is reliable and easy to maintain
7. Has reasonable off road AND on road abilities
8. Is NOT a mini van!
This narrows the field to two... Acura and Lexus.
I think many folks that can afford $42k for an inflated Acura can plop down another 8 Grand for the Lexus if they find it to be more their cup of tea. I'm in that category and I don't see a whole lot else that fits my needs out there. The Bimmer won't cut it because it's too small and has no 3rd row seating. The Mercedes is known to be somewhat unreliable, has absolutely ZERO offroading ability and is expensive to maintain. The American made SUV's? Well. Suffice to say I waved the American flag for most of my life buying one GM/Dodge/Ford piece 'o junk after another. All the while being treated like crap and getting ripped off by the dealers. I've had it with American cars and American dealers. Fool me ten times shame on you, but eventually I walk away for good. I will never buy another American made Car unless something drastically changes. So far it has not.
So there it is. The two badges that best fit all those criteria. The Acura MDX and the Lexus GX. I don't give a hoot that one is more optimized for off road than the other. I think they both probably do both quite well both on road and off. Certainly well enough to suit my needs. I am of course assuming the GX will handle well and have decent on road manners. Not really a stretch considering how nicely the LX rides (my Sister has one), and it's considerably bigger and heavier. The main reason I'm buying one of these vehicles? Because I don't want a mini van and I need something nice with a 3rd row seat that is fairly small and comfortable. I think either one would fit that category nicely.
So. While it may not be fair to compare the two, it is inevitable that it's going to happen. At least it will until Lexus adds a 3rd seat to the RX and possibly a bit more testosterone to the design. Most Dad's in my shoes that care about reliability are going to be looking very hard at both these vehicles. When you look at what's out there with a 3rd row seat, offroad ability, luxury, and reliability, it really narrows the field. |
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| vicpai |
quote:
Originally posted by socalJD
VicP, it is good we agree that we disagree - ........... - however please expand on your distaste for Bimmers, I owned a 3 series coupe and a 5 series sedan and can categorically vouch for the sheer pleasure and pride to own and drive them. They were never problematic maintenance wise, but will admit that due to the german parts and mechanic skill needed that repairs run higher than your run of the mill chevy. BMWs hold their value well and their perceived image cannot be matched (watch how valets treat BMWs with a bit more caution and care than your typical import) The X5 got a bad rap for some early production issues, but I'll gamble that Bavaria got it right in it's 3rd year of production (unlike our fav whipping dog MB) If BMW made the 'X - I would buy it in a heartbeat, and like I said, if $ were no object, I would be tooling around in the 4.6 X5 and loving life . . .
........Well, I will agree with you that the 3 series is probably one of the best handling and engineered cars out there .......BUT THAT DOESN'T CUT IT.......An automobile serves us for transportation as well and it needs to be first and foremost WELL BUILT.....The Germans might have the most sophisticated and advanced engineering and technology, but they don't know the first thing about how to put these things together well........YOUR experience with a 3 and 5 series (BTW the most reliable OF THE BMW models as rated by Consumer Reports) is probably a rarer occurence. I've known many of my friends with BMWs who've had numerous issues!...........The X5, is a completely different story......Even in it's 3rd year Consumer Reports has rated it's reliability POOR and even though it was the highest scoring SUV in their tests, does not recommend it for this one MOST IMPORTANT reason!!
..........you also did mention the word "repair" with BMW. As far as Lexus and Acura vehicles go, this word does not even exist ;) |
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| vip9 |
quote:
Originally posted by vicpai
..........you also did mention the word "repair" with BMW. As far as ... Acura vehicles go, this word does not even exist ;)
Vic, get real! :( |
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| SteveD |
Bareby,
I have been following your posts here and over at the ClubLexus forums. You and I seem like we are in the same boat as I am also in the market for a family vehicle and I am willing to pay up to about $50K for a mid-sized luxury SUV.
You may also want to check out the new Volvo XC90. It appears as though it will have many of the attributes you are looking for in a family vehicle (e.g. third row seats, plenty of safety features, good cargo room). The XC90 is currently at the top of my list but I still have some concerns about the reliabiliity of Volvo's; especially because it will be a new model.
It's great to have as many options in the mid-sized luxury SUV market as we do now. Only a few years ago, our options probably would have been limited to the ML320 and the RX300.
Steve D. |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by SteveD
Bareby,
I have been following your posts here and over at the ClubLexus forums. You and I seem like we are in the same boat as I am also in the market for a family vehicle and I am willing to pay up to about $50K for a mid-sized luxury SUV.
You may also want to check out the new Volvo XC90. It appears as though it will have many of the attributes you are looking for in a family vehicle (e.g. third row seats, plenty of safety features, good cargo room). The XC90 is currently at the top of my list but I still have some concerns about the reliabiliity of Volvo's; especially because it will be a new model.
Steve D.
You nailed it Steve. The Volvo XC90 is definitely on my list to look at when they come out. I am also somewhat wary because I don't know much about Volvo (other than they are reputed to be very safety conscious). It does seem many are concerned about the reliability aspect as you are and I have heard that Volvo's are not particularly reliable cars overall. So that's my big concern. I have also never been crazy about Volvo interiors but that's sortof a personal thing. The styling just hasn't appealed to my sense of aesthetics (a big round KNOB mounted dead center in the console controls area comes to mind). However that doesn't mean that the XC90 won't be different. Are there any pictures anywhere that you know of that show the interior? |
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| SteveD |
bareyb,
You can find a lot of information on the XC90, including some interior photos, on volvospy.com.
You're right about interiors being a very personal thing. From the photos I've seen, I would rank the XC90 interior ahead of the MDX but behind the GX470's (again going only by GX470 photos I've seen). I'm hoping that the Volvo and Lexus dealerships where I have placed my deposits will have prototypes in their respective showrooms soon so I can take a better look.
Steve D. |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by MDXtrous
Pics are available at:
www.volvoxc90.com
Say... Not bad. I like it. It's a bit "stationwagony" and the twin turbos give me pause, but overall a very nice looking vehicle! Any idea when they will be available and how much they will MSRP for? :)
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| msu79gt82 |
| ... for styling. The Lexus looks like the truck it is. The Sequoia, Land Cruiser, LX 470, 4Runner, and now the GX470 all look the same - basically like a Jeep Grand Cherokee:rolleyes: |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by msu79gt82
... for styling. The Lexus looks like the truck it is. The Sequoia, Land Cruiser, LX 470, 4Runner, and now the GX470 all look the same - basically like a Jeep Grand Cherokee:rolleyes:
Ah yes. But some might say all the car based UTES are starting to look the same too. Basically like a Lexus RX300. :rolleyes:
Although I do agree with you that the MDX is probably one of the best looking SUV's on the road. I think the GX470 is also very good looking, but in a different (more "truckie") way. :D |
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| fvince |
Assuming the GX470 and MDX are comparable in functionality, quality and their price was the same with all the options I wanted on both, IMHO the scales are tipped in favor of the GX470 because of Lexus customer service.
My opinion is based solely on personal experience and not what I read or hear. I have owned both Acura's and Lexus'. On balance, Acura service was just O.K. Certainly nothing to write home about. On the other hand, the Lexus service was uniformly outstanding. This lesson has yet to be learned by Acura. I have had better service at Honda dealers than Acura. Go figure.
Ask Tim how important service is to his business success. I buy from Tim BECAUSE of the service. The prices are very competitive, but the service is the real key. Sadly, we Americans have grown to expect and accept less than quality service and are often surprised when we get it. When I do get excellent service, I award it with more business if I can.
I bought the "X" because of its styling, functionality, quality and fun factor and frankly, decided to live with the marginal service I'll get at the local Acura dealer. Lexus didn't have anything to compare even at $15K more, otherwise I would be driving a Lexus SUV.
If Lexus built an SUV that was identical to the "X" (just theory), who would you buy it from? Acura or Lexus. From my experiences, the answer is obvious. |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by fvince
Assuming the GX470 and MDX are comparable in functionality, quality and their price was the same with all the options I wanted on both, IMHO the scales are tipped in favor of the GX470 because of Lexus customer service.
You know. That's an excellent point. We do have two Lexus vehicles and I was considering the Acura mainly because the LX470 was just TOO much more money. The GX on the other hand is within the realm of doability.
I just dropped my RX300 off at the Lexus dealership for it's 40k service and to have it "safety" checked before I turn it over to my Wife to drive (I'm getting to keep the new vehicle). Anyway, the service manager noticed that both my Wife and I were customers and that we both bought our cars from that same dealership. Guess what? He handed me his card and told me next time to please just give him a call and he would drop off the loaner to our house and pick up my vehicle and return it when the service was completed. My jaw dropped. That is some pretty impressive service. They do know how to get customer loyalty.
On the other hand, I spoke to the manager of Los Gatos Acura and told him I was somewhat put off by the "forced accessories" at double the price and could he discuss it with me. That it was somewhat souring my impression of Acura as a company. Guess what? He, in a very nice way told me that they do it because they can. In other words, take it or leave it and we don't care. Sheesh. I gotta say he was the nicer of the Guys I talked to. One anonymous salesguy on the phone literally told me "kiss my ass" and hung up on me when I told him I felt his dealership was gouging. True story. I suppose they get tired of hearing it.
Anyway, thanks for reminding me that good service deserves customer loyalty. Now that Lexus has a "somewhat" reasonably priced luxury SUV they might just get my business again. Todays' service rep didn't hurt their chances, that's for sure. I just hope it drives as nice as it looks. The Acura is going to be pretty hard to beat. :) |
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| srpbep |
OK, I'll make myself a target. 1st I will state that we are happy with our X, certainly got what we paid for. Now that I've set the tone, IF price was the same, it would almost certainly be the Lexus [order of following is not significant]:
** If I cared about prestige, definately Lexus.
** Customer service, definately Lexus.
** Little things that matter, definately Lexus. Some of the nitpiks on the X include:
-- A radio that got decent reception [say, as well as a base Camry for example].
-- A quality sound systems that is NOT.
-- More comfortable seats would be real nice.
-- Nicer leather would be nice.
-- A quiet ride at freeway speeds would be nice.
-- Length of warranty [time AND mileage], definately Lexus.
Lexus has a GREAT reputation that it EARNED. We are satisfied overall with our X, but it could be better. Then again, can we really forget price in this comparison? Is it fair to compare a Chevy to a Cadillac, a Dodge to a Mercedes, a VW to a Porsche? |
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| vicpai |
quote:
Originally posted by vip9
Vic, get real! :(
.......and, sadly, I take back what I said earlier :( .........Although the Japanese brands are still more reliable, dependable and durable than German and American brands, in general, they are not what they used to be........My 2003 Corolla suffers from a major steering/supension design flaw which they cannot (or, more likely, are not willing to) identify or fix.........I guess GREED is universal........and so these Japanese companies are now subject to the "FIRST-YEAR-CUSTOMER-GET'S-TO-WORK-OUT-THE-BUGS-FOR-US" syndrome.........or in some cases "the design" as well!! :rolleyes: |
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| socalJD |
| At least the Japanese know how to make awesome Navi systems, as you could attest to since you're our resident expert, I believe your top 3 Navi's (Acura [by Alpine], Lexus [by Kenwood], and Kenwood) are all made in the land of the rising sun. At least you should never get lost in your Corolla even if it won't turn in the proper direction ! ;) :p :2: |
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| MDXtrous |
I think it sometimes comes down to how the car/SUV makes you feel. As Car and Driver put it when reviewing the "2002 ES300": "It does what it's designed to do very well, but there is not one element of excitement in the car"
If I were given the option of getting a new ES300 or a TL S-Type, I would take the TL S-Type in a heartbeat. Does the ES300 have the Nakamichi stereo, better leather, fit, less noise, better service, sure, but the TL S-Type's got the style, engine performance, sportiness, "basic" luxury amenities, navi and all for probably a few grand less. Same comparison goes for the GX470 and the MDX. I would take the MDX again since it is the best buy for the luxury items I want, 3rd row seat design, style, powerful engine/great MPG, sportiness all for thousands less...
But I guess we're talking if price didn't matter... X5 4.6 ... |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by MDXtrous
I think it sometimes comes down to how the car/SUV makes you feel. As Car and Driver put it when reviewing the "2002 ES300": "It does what it's designed to do very well, but there is not one element of excitement in the car"
Okay... But we are talking SUV's here. Not entry level sedans... As to exciting? Are you kidding? I think you would be pretty hard pressed to find any review that calls the Lexus/Toyota offroad vehicles "unexciting". Suffice to say LX470's and Prados kick ass on just about anything out there. They are legendary for their racing ability, handling, and sheer balls to the wall torque. I expect the GX being 800 pounds lighter with an even more powerful V8 than this year will have some serious low end punch. It makes most of it's 380 ft/lbs of torque by 1100 rpm! That's enough low end grunt to climb a wall. I've been very impressed with the V6's of late, but there's still a part of me that misses a V8. I suspect that's partly why so many here are drooling over the V8 Bimmers and Mercedes.
Of course it's all speculation at this point, but if Lexus holds true to it's LX470 and Toyota Prado roots this SUV will be one of the baddest boys on the planet. On road and off. As to how it will compare to the MDX? That remains to be seen. I suspect they'd both be near the top of the pack in any comparo. My guess is the Lexus will KILL the Acura (and most anything else except it's own cousins) off road and the Acura will merely "edge" the Lexus out on road in some aspects, but the Lexus will probably have the better ride comfort (the Acura can be a little stiff). Of course, there's the money factor, but for the purposes of this exercise where money is not a factor, I think the Lexus will be the overall winner. We'll see... It's going to have to be a good everyday driver or it's gonna sink like stone in sales. I think Lexus "gets" that most folks don't do alot of heavy offroading. My take is this will simply be a VERY safe everyday driver with extremely good "on road" manners and outstanding durability and offroad prowess. ;) |
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| MDXtrous |
I think when they said "excitement", they meant the design of the car, not whether it was capable of going off road. Agreed, that the GX470 would be better than the MDX offroad, but I think 95% of owners will be spend 95% of the time onroad. Will the GX470 be quieter, probably yes, will the V-8 be torquier, probably yes, but it just doesn't look/feel as "exciting" in my opinion. It just reminds me too much (just the design/look) of the M-class. Now the Nissan Murano is a different story...
Excitement to me is the Subaru WRX, the Infinity G35, and I think the MDX approaches that more than the GX470. |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by MDXtrous
Excitement to me is the Subaru WRX, the Infinity G35, and I think the MDX approaches that more than the GX470.
Ah. Point well taken... I think the MDX is probably one of the best looking SUV's anywhere in terms of pure style. No question. Inside and out. It manages to have sexy lines without being too cheeky and thus falling into the "soccer Mom" trap. It's a tiny tad "mini vanny" but it's aggressive enough to overcome it. FAR better than most of the other car based UTES. The Bimmer is probably my second choice, but they managed to take all the "utility" out of "sport utility".
OTOH, I do like the look of the new Lexus. It's not purely a truck style like the 4runners and Pathfinders. It's more of a cross between the sexy lines of the car based UTES and the tough no nonsense lines of the orginal off roaders. The GX is a more manly design than the MDX, while still having a certain elegance and "new" style of it's own. I can see alot of Men liking the new look and even a few Women. Still I agree. In a beauty contest the Acura would definitely win.
Either way, I wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen in either one, although I wonder if the MDX is "too young" for me... I don't see alot of guys my age in them (I'm 42). From what I hear the Lexus is much more impressive in person. From talking to those that have seen it, it apparently has very eye catching lines and is by far the most aggressive looking Lexus ever. Definitely a style depature that bridges the gap between the high style of the car based UTES and the no nonsense "trucklike" designs of the past. |
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| renov8r |
quote:
Originally posted by bareyb
...Either way, I wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen in either one, although I wonder if the MDX is "too young" for me... I don't see alot of guys my age in them (I'm 42). ...
HOLY COW! That "silly con" money must still be flowing! Around the 'staid' Chicago area I would guestimate an MDX average age of about 47-52!!!!
It seems that the demographics for ALL X5's is a bit lower, maybe 43-50-- too hard to seperate out the 3.0 from the V8 models.
The RX300's are skewed more to 'moms' and probably have an age range a good ten years younger. Real similar to ML320... Amazingly of the 4 or 5 G-wagen sightings I've had all but ONE have been women under 45, what kind of person gets a TANK for their kid's mom? The 8 cylinder ML's have two humps in their age distro, one for folks with blink-blink intentions, and another for whom V8 evokes memories of their youth, so I'd say there are a lot owned by folks over 55 and another cluster much younger (like under 40).
The LX470's are probably in the upper range, 49-57...the Land Cruisers skew a bit younger.
I'm basing this on observations from Chicago proper, as well as affluent suburban areas. Interestingly, in the suburbs you will see many more kids being transported, the 'urban' SUV's rarely carry more than a driver and perhaps one passenger. |
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| SteveD |
One drawback (in my opinion) to the GX470 compared to the MDX and the upcoming XC90 is that the third row seats will not fold flat to the floor. I don't like the thought of having to remove the seats everytime I want to utilize the full storage capacity of the vehicle.
I'd like to hear from you MDX owners as to how important this feature is to you.
Another drawback to me is that the rear door of the GX470 will swing out, rather than up. I can see this being a problem after parallel parking and then trying to take stuff in or out of the rear cargo area. |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by SteveD
One drawback (in my opinion) to the GX470 compared to the MDX and the upcoming XC90 is that the third row seats will not fold flat to the floor...
... Another drawback to me is that the rear door of the GX470 will swing out, rather than up. I can see this being a problem after parallel parking and then trying to take stuff in or out of the rear cargo area.
I agree 100 percent. I can't believe they all don't just make them fold flat! I also would much prefer a door that swings up. One thing I noticed though is that the fold up seats are attached somewhat high up from the floor to the side wall (above the wheel well level) so you don't lose any floor space but you do lose some vertical stacking space. Our stroller would still fit flat across the cargo area but you couldn't stack to the side walls up from there. The wheel wells stick out just about the same distance anyway, so you don't get the full width even if you remove the seats completely because the wheel wells are still in the way. So basically you are only losing the vertical space above and rearward of the wheel wells. Not much that would normally be packed in that area anyway unless you were cramming the whole back full. As far as plywood, suit cases etc. you don't really lose as much floor area as it would seem. You just lose the one foot wide by two foot tall (prox) area along the upper rear sides. |
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| MDXtrous |
quote:
Originally posted by SteveD
One drawback (in my opinion) to the GX470 compared to the MDX and the upcoming XC90 is that the third row seats will not fold flat to the floor. I don't like the thought of having to remove the seats everytime I want to utilize the full storage capacity of the vehicle.
I'd like to hear from you MDX owners as to how important this feature is to you.
Another drawback to me is that the rear door of the GX470 will swing out, rather than up. I can see this being a problem after parallel parking and then trying to take stuff in or out of the rear cargo area.
Believe it or not, when I saw that the GX470 at the NY auto show had the 3rd row seats that folded up towards the side instead of folding flat, I ruled it out immediately. That's how important that design was for me. May not make sense, but each time I have to take 7 or 8 people than later quickly change it so I can take 12 pieces of luggage, I just smile at the decision I made. |
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| bareyb |
| Here's a shot of the rear seat. Definitely not as good a design as the MDX. Still in normal day to day usage doesn't effectively block the floorspace "that" much. Most of the time I'm just lugging a few bags of groceries or my Kids Stroller. With the seats that high up off the ground they'd fit fine. It sure doesn't look quite as clean though and is definitely a plus for the MDX design. In terms of actual comfort to sit in, I'd give the edge to the Lexus seats (based on the LX470) because your knees aren't pushed up quite as high into your chest as the MDX design and they are a tad bit plusher. They can also be removed pretty easily. I think I'd still like it better if they folded flat, even if I had to give up a big of comfort. The MDX seats are definitely not comfortable for adults. This design is still not what I'd call comfortable, but it's not too bad. That may be why Lexus kept this design. In my case I could live with the side fold up, but would prefer the flat fold since we won't be using it that much. |
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| SteveD |
Bareyb,
If the GX470's third row seats fold up as you suggest (I haven't researched this very much and I don't know how the seats work in the LX470), maybe this won't be a big deal to me.
Now if you could only make GX's swing out rear door stop reminding me of the old Ford LTD Country Squire station wagons my parents had when I was growing up! |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by SteveD
Bareyb,
If the GX470's third row seats fold up as you suggest (I haven't researched this very much and I don't know how the seats work in the LX470), maybe this won't be a big deal to me.
Now if you could only make GX's swing out rear door stop reminding me of the old Ford LTD Country Squire station wagons my parents had when I was growing up!
Hey Steve,
Hopefully the picture I attached is showing up for you guys. I took it into photoshop and lightened it up so you could see more detail with the seats. You can see how it leaves most of the lower floor space intact. I still wish it just disappeared though. That's still a major drawback IMO and a big plus for the MDX. As far as the swing out door? Yuck on that too. Ostensibly done to make it easier for smaller folks to pull the door closed instead of having to jump up and "grab and hang". I suppose you could get used to it, but I agree it seems like it's going to be in the way more times than not. |
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| SteveD |
Baeryb,
Thanks for the picture. I think I sent my last post at the same time you posted the picture. You're right about the seats not taking up a lot of cargo space.
With the third row seats in the folded up positon, is the driver's visibility impaired (e.g. larger blind spots)? |
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| MDXtrous |
| One more point on the GX470. Another part that I didn't like on the LX470, was it sat very upright and very high up. I never sat in one while moving, but it was certainly harder to get into than the MDX, and don't know if it would cause a bit more motion sickness (my wife has it bad.) Don't know if the GX470 is the same, but given Toyota is pretty good with making it comfortable for people, it may not be an issue. |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by MDXtrous
One more point on the GX470. Another part that I didn't like on the LX470, was it sat very upright and very high up. I never sat in one while moving, but it was certainly harder to get into than the MDX, and don't know if it would cause a bit more motion sickness (my wife has it bad.) Don't know if the GX470 is the same, but given Toyota is pretty good with making it comfortable for people, it may not be an issue.
It does appear they addressed that. The Lexus will have the ability to raise or lower the body 4 inches either direction depending on what you are using it for. Higher for offroad and lower for highway and around town use. |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by SteveD
Baeryb,
With the third row seats in the folded up positon, is the driver's visibility impaired (e.g. larger blind spots)?
It sure looks like it might be, but it would surprise me that Lexus would design something that would seriously impair rear vision... Later on I'll have to go ask some folks at the LX470 forum if they have had any problems with that. It looks to me like the part of the rear that you actually look over your shoulder to see behind you is not blocked. I don't think I look out the window that far back... I noticed the MDX has a thicker pillar between the two rear windows that causes some slight blockage too so it might be an even trade... I'd bet neither has enough blockage to be a concern... |
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| paul123 |
quote:
Originally posted by bareyb
Lets get down to it. These two vehicles are optimized for different things, have a different look and are appointed much differently. The biggest argument I hear against the Lexus is the price. I'm in the market for a new SUV and cost is really not THAT much of an object for me. I just want the BEST vehicle. So. I'm curious... Based purely on speculation of what the GX470 will be... If money weren't an object which one would YOU buy today (based on your needs and priorities) and why?
Still would have to drive each one. You have to remember that the Lexus has a rear axle not independent suspension. One of the main reasons for my purchasing the SUV with Acura was the independent rear suspension which makes it drive like a Luxury car not a truck. The Lexus may have a stiff truck drive like the QX-4 from Infinity. The big Lexus 470 is much larger and may be much smoother drive than this new smaller SUV. The test drive will be a big item in the final decision. |
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| TheWorm |
I have no doubt the GX will be a great SUV. Lexus quality and service, etc etc etc. I think it's a great looking car/truck, too (inside and out). Prolly will have better quality materials and a quieter ride than the Acura. Also might have an uninspired ride if other Lexus models are any indication. I enjoy driving the MDX more than our GS. I don't know that the X actually handles better (how could it, really?) but there's a helluva lot more "feel" to it...like you're actually driving the car rather than just being along for the ride.
Poor implementation of the 3rd row seats and the swing-sideways hatch would be potential deal-killers for me. If I had it, I might be inclined to remove the 3rd row seats altogether, but that hatch. Oh, that hatch...has the potential to be a daily pain-in-the-ass usability mistake IMO.
@ this point, the MDX has done everything we've asked it to, and has done it admirably. I think I'd be inclined to do the MDX again and use the $10k for toys.
Sounds to me as an "objective" observer of this thread (til now) that bareyb already has made his decision... :) |
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| bareyb |
quote:
Originally posted by TheWorm
Sounds to me as an "objective" observer of this thread (til now) that bareyb already has made his decision... :)
Well... Not really. I'm leaning towards the Lexus, but as it's been said, much depends on the test drive. I like alot about the MDX too, and as you said, that 3rd row seat setup and the swing out tailgate are a bummer for the GX. Why on Earth would they do that! I also would need to see how well the adjustable height thing works. Overall I've been very pleased with the Lexus vehicles we have purchased in the past and that has alot to do with my enthusiasm for the new GX. Also, I'm just playing devils advocate in counterpointing for the GX. I really haven't made a firm decision but it's fun to debate the different strengths and weaknesses for both vehicles. I can tell you one thing for sure... It's definitely not a slam dunk for either one.
It's all pretty academic at this point and the last thing I want to do is give the impression I'm pushing the Lexus and downing the Acura. So far it looks like everyone is taking this thread in the spirit it's intended. I'm sure not here to to slam the MDX at all. I LOVE the MDX and damn near bought one. Even had a deposit down and a delivery date. It's just that the new model MDX is due out soon and will have some improvements, and with the advent of the new GX coming out as well I decided to wait it out and see how they compare in the new model year. I can easily see myself going for the MDX OR the Lexus. Hey 10 grand is 10 grand... and the Acura has an excellent bunch of owners and a great forum to go with it. ;) |
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| TheWorm |
quote:
Originally posted by bareyb
...last thing I want to do is give the impression I'm pushing the Lexus and downing the Acura. So far it looks like everyone is taking this thread in the spirit it's intended. ...
Agreed! FWIW I've always envisioned the GX as a smaller version of the LX (at least when trying to imagine what it'd be like inside, if you know what I mean). Needless to say based on the pics I've seen the interior looks nothing short of gorgeous. You may have noticed in one of vic's earlier threads I expressed disappointment that he wasn't getting the GX for sure since I wanted a report on him for when my GS lease is up. But now I'm thinking "fun" car and am eyeballing the Infiniti G35 coupe...still have > 1 year to go...I'm just in my 2/3-through-the-lease-and-getting-impatient phase :)
I wonder whether comparing the MDX to the GX is an exercise similar to comparing the TL to the ES. I'm not familiar enough with either the TL or ES to know, but my impression is that the handling/performance/luxury comparisons might be quite similar to the MDX-GX discussion. |
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| tigmd99 |
Hey all,
Just a reminder...the rear hatch on the GX470 is no different than that on the new '02 Honda CRV.
Third-row seat design is now a big thing...not sure why...wasn't it shown to be NOT the best place to seat in ANY SUV (short of a Yukon XL or Excursion) in terms of comfort AND safety???
I believe that Lexus could not do the MDX's third-row seat design secondary to the big spare tire (265/65/17) that is beneath the rear cargo floor. MDX has a mini-spare. Mitsu Montero has the spare on the cargo door. There are compromises to every design.
Thanks. |
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| MDXtrous |
quote:
Originally posted by tigmd99
I believe that Lexus could not do the MDX's third-row seat design secondary to the big spare tire (265/65/17) that is beneath the rear cargo floor. MDX has a mini-spare. Mitsu Montero has the spare on the cargo door. There are compromises to every design.
Thanks.
The "mini-spare" was just to cut cost, the full size spare fits in the same location as many have chosen to upgrade. |
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| msu79gt82 |
quote:
Originally posted by MDXtrous
The "mini-spare" was just to cut cost, the full size spare fits in the same location as many have chosen to upgrade.
I have a full size spare - the donut spare in the MDX has nothing to do with the 3rd row seating. |
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| bareyb |
I think the 3rd row seat design differences come down to what factors were given higher priority.
Honda/Acura went for the most unobtrusive design. I believe their priority was geared towards someone who might only use the seat in an emergency or on rare occassion. Preferably by a child. In order to provide a "flat" surface it becomes necessary to raise the load floor and create a very low profile seat. All the while trying to not give up much cargo space. While being the most unobtrusive, it is also less comfortable. The seating surface is just too close to the floor. I'm a fairly big guy and I know I couldn't stand to be back there for more than a few minutes. My knees were literally in my chest.
Toyota/Lexus went more towards comfort and real world useability in their design while sacrificing overall looks and the ability to hide the 3rd seat away. They seem to feel that most folks will probably use the 3rd row alot and have given up space in order to provide a larger more comfortable seat. Their design allows for a lower load floor which makes for easier loading and adding back in some of the vertical cargo room taken by the seats. This design also allows for the seat to be higher up from the floor creating a more natural seating position and a "flatter lap" for the passenger. I was able to sit fairly comfortably in the Lexus 3rd row seat. Not great, but better than the Acura.
Now. Having said all that... I think Acura hit the nail on the head better than lexus. Why? Because I think many folks are like us in that we only really want the 3rd row seat for emergencies or for rare occassions when we bring more than two or three people with us. The rest of the time, I'd rather not have to look at the seats folded up against the wall back there. I think if someone had 5 kids and needed a 3rd row seat fulltime they would simply buy a full sized van or a full sized SUV like the Suburban or Sequoia. In my case I would rather sacrifice quality over quantity and not have to look at the darn thing. I guess the obvious answer would be to take them out when not using them, but I can't see us doing that. Out of sight, out of mind rocks. It's definitely a huge plus for the Acura... |
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| MDXtrous |
quote:
Originally posted by bareyb
Toyota/Lexus went more towards comfort and real world useability in their design while sacrificing overall looks and the ability to hide the 3rd seat away. They seem to feel that most folks will probably use the 3rd row alot and have given up space in order to provide a larger more comfortable seat.
Maybe, but I think it's more of a "borrow the technology from the Land Cruiser" (I think a design probably around since the late 80s to early 90s) because it's easier. I think they are more an afterthought (like the MB ones) rather than the MDX, which was designed as part of the car. If you notice, most of the new 7 seaters, including the Ford Explorer and Suzuki Vitara all have fold flat seats. I actually compared the seating of the LX470 and that of the MDX at the NY car show, and the MDXs was more comfortable in my opinion.
Anyway, I hope I'm not overarguing a point. I feel like I've been rambling on and on about the 3rd seats. Oh well, just finished lunch and was trying to unwind a bit:rolleyes: |
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