| krammer |
Before I start posting some pics, please allow me a rant.
The Bose system in the MDX is one of the worst car audio systems I've heard in the past ten years. My wife's 94 Accord sounds better. I had an old pair of Pyle Drivers up front and a cheap pair of Kenwoods in the back of my old Cherokee, and that sounded better than this system, a supposedly upgraded, premium sound system. A few points.
1. Have Bose engineers heard of a crossover network or a properly design high or low pass filter? When you have the same vocals coming from your 1.5" tweeters, 6.5" mid/woofers(or whatever the door speakers are) and 10" woofer (imitating a subwoofer), not to mention a 2" twiddler(?). there are some serious design problems with your system.
2. What the h*** is a twiddler anyway? The only reason that I see for it is so the third row passengers get some semblance of balanced sound as the woofer is right next to them. Either that or it's supposed to be some sort of a center channel speaker, except that is doesn't receive center channel info. All is does is mess up the stereo imaging of the system.
3. While many stock speakers are cheap, this is supposed to be an upgraded, premium system. I don't see how the speakers could be made any cheaper.
4. The booming bass - 'nuff said.
5. No real highs. No clear, clean sound at any frequency.
I'm sure I've forgotten a few things, but that is enough of a list to warrant an upgrade.
I've upgraded the stock speakers with Infinity Reference 652i up front and Kenwood eXcelon KFC XR600 in the rear. The tweeters in the door pods and the twiddler have been disconnected. The sound has improved dramatically. There are actually nice clean highs and despite the stock (sub)woofer's attempt to boom, the bass has tightened up.
Despite the fact that the new speakers are 4 ohms and the stocks were 2, the new speakers are actually louder. I initially put the Kenwoods in the front with stock in the rear and the fade was more heavily weighed to the front than with all stock. The Infinitys and Kenwoods are very efficient. Obviously, the stock ones are not. |
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| krammer |
Here are the Kenwood eXcelon KFC XR600s. I wired them in the normal 4 ohm configuration for a couple of reasons. I thought that since the Kenwoods and the Infinitys have the same efficiency rating and the Infinitys are 4 ohm, they would be better balanced. Also the Kenwoods have a bi-ampable setup. If I wired them up in parallel (to drop the load to 2 ohms), I would be wiring the high pass filter onboard in parallel with the woofer portion of the speaker (please correct me if I am not looking at this properly) which might not sound right.
The wires from the speakers were included. I soldered them to a cut-up Crutchfield harness. |
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| frostyra |
You pretty well described the well-known Bose sound; that's why most high-end stereo types tend to shun Bose systems. I tried both the Bose and the standard system in the MDX, and felt that the standard system did a very good job with naturally-recorded acoustic music, which is what I listen to.
Want to hear some WOW car audio in the realm of "sounds natural"? Try to take a listen to the Mark Levinson system in the expensive Lexus coupe. |
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| krammer |
| I mounted the kenwoods in the front door. I lined up the top hole below the stock top hole. The Kenwood mouting holes just make the flat part of the panel. I ensured that I had a sufficient flat mounting surface for all holes and marked with a pencil. I removed the speaker and drilled pilot holes. I hooked up the harness, screwed the speaker in place using the supplied screws (with the tweeter angled up), and popped the cover back in place. |
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| krammer |
| With both kenwoods in place in the front, I popped the tweeter covers off and unscrewed the tweeters. The connecter is the white plug that is sticking through the plastic pod. I popped that out and disconnected the tweeter. I tested them and was very pleased with the results. Time for the backs. |
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| krammer |
| Time for the back and time for a change of mind. The Kenwoods have a very shallow mounting depth due to some advanced magnets. Also with the oversized woofer on the infinitys, it seemed that the Kenwoods would fit in the back a little easier and the Infinitys would mount a little tighter in the front. The ring on the Kenwoods lines up perfectly with the rear rain baskets. The dual input connector on the Kenwoods caused a little problem as the tweeter connector is large and has the high pass filter there. So I tried the Kenwoods upside down and they fit with very little cutting required as shown in the modified basket on the right. |
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| krammer |
| Putting the Kenwoods in the rain basket, the main connector needed to be bent in slightly and the tweeter connecter fit outside the basket. I threw some electrical tape on the tweeter connector to avoid any shorts (actually learned this the hard way on only one of them.) |
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| krammer |
| The stock and the supplied screws are too short to mount the Kenwoods in the top hole. Luckily I had a couple of screws in my tool box that fit. The stock screws seemed to grab well enough in the bottom two holes, but I'll need to check again to be on the safe side. The only potential problem is that the Kenwoods are upside down, as the tweeter is angled slightly downward. They sound fine, but I might revisit later. |
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| krammer |
| I then connected the Infinitys in the front with another set of Crutchfield harnesses. I used the top stock mounting hole and screwed the speaker into place. I then drilled pilot holes and screwed the speaker into place using the remaining 3 holes. I did not need to use the supplied mounting ring, but I did use the supplied 'weatherstripping' for a tighter seal. The factory grill again went back into place no problem. |
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| krammer |
Not quite the end, but already a great improvement in sound. Next step is to put together a low pass filter (cap and inductor arrived today) for the (sub)woofer. Some dynamat and fiberfill will go in before the (sub)woofer goes back in. If that doesn't sound good enough for now (which i'm guessing it won't), I probably stick a Polk GNX in there.
More pictures will be coming for the subwoofer. |
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| xcel |
Hi Krammer:
___I had to move my post so as to not screw up your parade ;)
___Great to hear about the audio quality improvements and I’m glad you supplied the pic’s. I don’t own an MDX yet but it’s on order …
___Why are you not replacing the disconnected tweeters with something better? As for those disconnected tweeters, I have no idea as I am not a car stereo buff but wouldn’t make sense to place a tweeter of decent quality up there for spatial location? I suppose balance would be completely screwed up but that is why I am asking …
___Lastly, if you had to do it all over again, would you have simply purchased (2) pair of Kenwood’s vs. (2) pair of Infinities, gone with the Infinities all around like most other members, or installed exactly what you have described already?
___Thanks again for the pic’s and instructions.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| krammer |
frostyra: If I hear the Mark Levinson system I may want to cry. I've heard that it's pretty impressive! Let me enjoy my new sound for a while. :)
xcel: I probably will be doing the sub as well. I've heard that it may be possible to tame the stock sub with a low-pass filter and fiberfill padding behind it, so I thought that I'd try that first. Even if I do replace the sub, I still want the filter and padding anyway.
If you leave the tweeters in, the sound would probably be pretty unbalanced, beside the fact of leaving a POS tweeter in there. I was considering a component system up front (Infinity 605cs), but was unsure where to mount and how to wire up the crossover. I didn't want to take apart the door for time considerations. I was considering building my own highpass filter for the tweeters, but I went with the easier and cheaper alternative. I may get ambitious later on and put in the 605cs ($119 at etronics) and use the extra speakers in my wifes Honda or next car.
The "if I had to do it again" depends on lots of things. If I had the money I would have the whole system replaced professionally with dedicated amps and MB Quart speakers (had them in my old Porsche and loved them.) If I had gone with the Infinitys all around, I would have saved a few dollars, not much, but I'm happy with the Kenwoods and the results so far and mounting the Kenwoods in the rear was very easy. |
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| DaleB |
| It doesn't appear you used any Dynamat or similar on the doors. I cut a piece the shape of the door grills to mount the speakers against. I also placed pieces inside the speaker hole, against the inner surface of the outer door skin. As far as I could reach practically, and not interfering with the window mechanism. |
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| MARFONG |
krammer,
Thanks for the nice photos. Today, I also changed my front speakers to the Infinity 652's. I did notice an improvement in the sound quality. I plan to swap out the rears later with the same Infinity speakers.
Questions: I wasn't sure how to adjust the tweeter on the Infinity speaker. It says to rotate it so it is angled toward the listener. Does this really make any difference?
I also did not use Dynamat. How important is using this product? Many other MDX'ers have used this product.
You mentioned that the tweeters/ twiddlers in the door pods were disconnected. I don't recall other MDX'ers doing this. Is there a major sound improvement?
One observation with the Infinitys: When my wife listens to her classical station, we notice more static noise in the background. Is this typical? I usually listen to pop, R&B, oldies, and do notice better sound quality. |
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| slackass |
| Looks good Krammer. I used to have a pair of those Kenwoods myself. They are sweet sounding speakers. Keep up the good work. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by MARFONG
krammer,
I also did not use Dynamat. How important is using this product? Many other MDX'ers have used this product.
While I did not make a comparison, with and without, the idea of Dynamat and the like is to reduce reflections (inside the door) and reduce the possibility of rattling, vibration, etc. (inside and on the panel). It also makes a very good sealing gasket for the speakers themselves.
Plastic and sheetmetal are far from ideal mounting surfaces and environments for speakers. |
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| MARFONG |
Talked to Infinity tech support this morning. The tech said that disconnecting the tweeters in the small speaker pods on the door would probably improve sound. He said the Infinitys already come with a tweeter, therefore the stock tweeters are not needed.
Has anyone besides Krammer disconnected the stock tweeters?
He also wasn't sure if using Dynamat would provide much improvement.
I must admit, the tech support from Infinity was very helpful and accomodating. He also agreed that the Bose speakers were junk. |
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| slackass |
| I took my tweeters out when I installed the Image Chameleons. At higher volumes the stock tweeters just sound really strained. The Image speakers are crystal clear at about the same volume. |
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| Maik |
quote:
Originally posted by MARFONG
Talked to Infinity tech support this morning. The tech said that disconnecting the tweeters in the small speaker pods on the door would probably improve sound. He said the Infinitys already come with a tweeter, therefore the stock tweeters are not needed.
Has anyone besides Krammer disconnected the stock tweeters?
He also wasn't sure if using Dynamat would provide much improvement.
I must admit, the tech support from Infinity was very helpful and accomodating. He also agreed that the Bose speakers were junk.
I put Dynamat in the drivers door, but not the passengers door. I am not able to hear any difference from one side to the other, so I never bothered to do the passengers door or the rear doors.
I also tried the low pass filter on the sub, but did not like the way it sounded at all, so I put it back to the stock connection. I would be interested to hear the reaction of any others who have done the sub mod. I believe fvince bought the parts when I did.
While I never disconnected the front door tweeters, I can see from krammer's picture that it is an easy task. I may well see if there is a difference with or without them. |
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| hhwc |
For those who have heard the Base system vs. the Bose system, do you think the base setup is better than the "premium" Bose setup? If so, Acura has made a BIG mistake! :eek:
I've never liked the Bose sound (home audio or car audio). I've heard speakers at less than half the cost that sounded better. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by Maik
I put Dynamat in the drivers door, but not the passengers door. I am not able to hear any difference from one side to the other, so I never bothered to do the passengers door or the rear doors.
I also tried the low pass filter on the sub, but did not like the way it sounded at all, so I put it back to the stock connection. I would be interested to hear the reaction of any others who have done the sub mod. I believe fvince bought the parts when I did.
While I never disconnected the front door tweeters, I can see from krammer's picture that it is an easy task. I may well see if there is a difference with or without them.
I could not imagine doing a good installation without something like Dynamat being part of it. Personal preference I think. I don't think it will make a difference that will jump out at you unless you listened to every possible frequency to determine if there is a point of vibration due to resonance.
Plus, the Dynamat has the attribute of adding to the total 'quiet' of the vehicle.
Based on TCMBruce's advice, I disconnected the stock tweeters, and do find the highs from the Infinitys as cleaner IMO. |
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| Kanuck |
i don't see how 1 sqft of Dynamat around a speaker can do a difference. it can't act as a seal since there is air coming in and out of the door panel all around it. at best, it will prevent the speaker from rattling at high volume if the screws ever come loose. i'd rather spend a buck on foam tape and lay it around the inside of the speaker ring to get the same result. the real benefit of Dynamat is when the entire door panel is covered with it. it will then reduce noise inside the car.
the thing i don't understand about the Bose system is what is the extra amp for? the Bose doesn't sound louder than the Base system. if anything, it is just adding distortion since it uses speaker-level inputs. i had a chance to compare both and i'm glad i waited for a Base. i'm now putting the dollars saved towards real speakers and amp. |
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| nwaring |
Krammer.... Thanks for the pictures. I was going to disconnect the tweets a couple weeks ago but when I removed the covers I thought I would have to cut the wires so I didn't do it. I didn't know to pull up on the whole thing to get to the connector. I will try it tonight.
Niles
:) |
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| Kanuck |
nwaring, you can do it both ways. if you simply want to disconnect the tweeter but leave it in the pod, then just pull the whole pod starting from the top. if you want to remove the tweeter, then just pop the grille open, unscrew the tweeter and then disconnect it.
if you want, i can post a pic of the inside of the pod later. |
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| Maik |
quote:
Originally posted by Kanuck
nwaring, you can do it both ways. if you simply want to disconnect the tweeter but leave it in the pod, then just pull the whole pod starting from the top. if you want to remove the tweeter, then just pop the grille open, unscrew the tweeter and then disconnect it.
if you want, i can post a pic of the inside of the pod later.
I just went out to my X and disconnected the tweeter and then compared sound from the left to the right side and I was not able to tell any difference. So I reattached the tweeters. I was not able, however, to get that white clip back in place, but the wiring seems to be out of the way and tight enough so as to not cause me any problems. I am guessing that my ear may not be as keen as some others here, but thats ok, makes it easier to please! |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by Kanuck
i don't see how 1 sqft of Dynamat around a speaker can do a difference. it can't act as a seal since there is air coming in and out of the door panel all around it. at best, it will prevent the speaker from rattling at high volume if the screws ever come loose. i'd rather spend a buck on foam tape and lay it around the inside of the speaker ring to get the same result. the real benefit of Dynamat is when the entire door panel is covered with it. it will then reduce noise inside the car.
You are right it will not seal, but makes a darn good mounting gasket. And while doing the whole door panel is best. I believe any is better than none, especially around the hole to dampen any vibration, and directly behind the speaker, to reduce resonance of the sheet metal of the outer door. But if you can't hear a difference and want to save a buck or two, then go for the foam tape, certainly better than mounting it directly on the plastic IMHO. I wouldn't mount a quality speaker in a cabinet without some dampening in the box. Standing waves exist even in less than airtight car doors. (It also reduces what is heard outside the car.) |
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| frostyra |
Marfong,
The classical station probably uses far less compression than the pop stations use (they do everything they can to maximize perceived volume); that could make for more background noise in the quiet sections of classical music -- and if the station is low-power or far away, that would make the problem even worse.
If you have a cassette recorder with meters on it, record the classical station at home, then the other stations; on the classical station, you'll see the meters all over the place, and more often than not they'll be very low. On most other stations, they're "banging into the red" almost all of the time. |
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| krammer |
Hello all, thanks for the great responses and encouraging words.
I was thinking of putting Dynamat on the front door plastic to create a good seal at least around the speaker. I used the foam tape on the Infinitys and it seems like a pretty good seal. With all of the other holes in the door panel, I'm not sure if the Dynamat will make much of a difference. I really don't want to take the doors apart, so I'm not sure that the amount of Dynamat I'd be able to fit through the speaker hole would make any noticable difference. I have no idea how to put Dynamat around the rear door speakers. That is the strangest speaker mounting I've seen.
Another way to look at the tweeters is if your adding good sounding speakers to your MDX do you really want to still hear the cheap ones that were there? I also didn't want to waste any power by having it go to the tweeters and the twiddler. Since I put in 4 ohm speakers (even very efficient ones) I want all available power to go to them and not be shared with the crap that was there (assuming that the tweeters share the same amp as the front speakers and the twiddler shares the same amp with the back speakers.)
MARFONG: The tweeters on the Infinitys are already at a fixed angle, but they rotate on their stalks. The first time I saw them in a store I tried to adjust the angle when I heard a click and realized how they work. I'm going to play around with them on Friday and listen for a difference. |
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| DaleB |
I understand, but I believe any you add does help. In fact there is one product that is circular and is put on the opposite surface to the rear of the speaker.
It has a special corrugated surface to break up standing waves. I don't know how effective that is versus just plastering as much Dynamat as you can.
I just folded it in sections to fit in the hole and plastered as much as I could on the inner door skin. I used it when I mounted the rear basket the same way as mounting the speaker to the front door panel. It will help insulate the basket from the panel.
Here is an older thread with pics, only difference was he did not use it inside the outer door panel.
http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/show...ghlight=Pioneer
I really thinks it helps the sound.
By the way, partsexpress.com has their brand quite a bit cheaper than Dynamat and supposedly just as good. There is also Cascade Insulation, very similar.
If you ever go on the car stereo forums, insulating linings are always recommended for all speaker mounts. |
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| nwaring |
Kanuck.... Thanks for the picture offer. I got them disconnected last night. Like Maik I had a hard time getting the white plastic clip back where it was. I popped the whole pod out a little from the top and was able to get in there and re-attach. The MDX goes in today for the thud and mirror tsb's. The tech will probably reconnect them.:D
Niles |
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| MARFONG |
krammer,
I didn't use the weatherstripping that came with the Infinity speakers. I think I will go back and use it like you did. But the weatherstrip doesn't seem to be that much and not enough to surround completely both speakers. Did you cut it into multiple small pieces for your install?
BTW, the Infinities are a big improvement over the Bose. I can't wait to do the back ones. |
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| krammer |
DaleB: I'm sure adding Dynamat does improve the sound, and I'll probably try to put some in at some time. I'm pretty happy with the sound right now, but there is always room for improvement. Thanks for the link to some pics and the sources of inexpensive Dynamat or equivalent. I think that I'll give them a try.
MARFONG: If you look closely on the Infinity weatherstripping it is actually split in two, right down the middle length wise. After separating the two halves, you should have more than enough for both speakers. |
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| slackass |
| As soon as R Stevens finishes his install, we should know if Dynamatting will help and how much. He took sound readings before and will do after. I too have not done sound deadning yet and would like to know the difference. |
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| edmondsmdx |
I've tried to duplicate Krammer's install from this thread. I'm still working on the rear Kenwoods. He mentions (re: his pix after the rain basket mods) that:
"Putting the Kenwoods in the rain basket, the main connector needed to be bent in slightly".
I've cut out the relevant areas for the tweeter connections, but I can't see how to bend in the main connector, so that the speaker can "flush" with the rain basket. The main connector is fibreglass, and doesnt seem to bend.
Anyone have any ideas? I'm obviously not an experienced installer, and have reached that "bottleneck" in finishing the job.... (we know what thats like!)
Thanks for anyones help!!!! |
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| R Stevens |
slackass,
I picked up my X from the installer last night. I needed it for a weekend road trip up to PA for the Penn State game tomorrow. Even the X has to take a back seat to college football!
The install isn't finished yet but everything is in except for the sub and sub box, dash trim and sound processor.
To be honest I haven't yet found the discipline required to turn off the audio system and take a meter reading! I'll try to do that this weekend. My subjective opinion is that the X is noticeably quieter with the Dynamat. This is particularly true for the general low frequency sounds I had noticed before.
The installer has tried to impress on me the fact that Dynamat is not installed primarily for soundproofing but to reduce the resonance created between the speaker sound waves and the vehicle panels, especially door panels. That resonance introduces significant distortion and cancellation of a portion of the speaker output. Bottom line is that Dynamat improves sound reproduction, but to be really effective it is likely the entire door panel must be covered. If you go to www.crutchfield.com and find Dynamat you will see a link to report with data on the before and after at different speeds and frequencies.
About the plastic rainguards - installer says they are in there only because the OEM speaker cones are paper and any moisture will rot them. They are not necessary if replacement speakers are not paper. I now have top of the line Boston Acoustic speakers in all four doors and the rain guards are sitting in a box in my basement! For DIYr's, you might want to consider not using the guards if it will make your install easier.
Oh, by the way - the new sound is truly amazing. They promised it would sound better than my home theatre system and I am now convinced it will after the sub is installed. |
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| edmondsmdx |
Now I'm confused!!
The rain baskets arent required, because their only purpose is to protect the paper cones on the stock speakers?
TheyCallMeBruce says some moisture barrier is necessary.. wouldnt lack of one (basket, plastic or otherwise) prompt an eventual short?
Help! I'm looking at two holes in my rear panels, that I'd like to fill with my new Kenwoods!
Thanks... |
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| mikel51 |
| I pulled out my rear speakers shortly after washing my MDX. I found a few drops of water on the rain baskets. Therefore, I think the rainbaskets serve a useful purpose. While water may not destroy plastic speaker cones, it sure doesn't seem like a good idea to let any electronic component purposefully get wet. There are wires, connections, and crossover components that may be getting wet and corroded if not protected. |
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| TheyCallMeBruce |
quote:
Originally posted by Maik
I put Dynamat in the drivers door, but not the passengers door. I am not able to hear any difference from one side to the other, so I never bothered to do the passengers door or the rear doors.
I also tried the low pass filter on the sub, but did not like the way it sounded at all, so I put it back to the stock connection. I would be interested to hear the reaction of any others who have done the sub mod. I believe fvince bought the parts when I did.
While I never disconnected the front door tweeters, I can see from krammer's picture that it is an easy task. I may well see if there is a difference with or without them.
Maik,
I'm sorry that the sub modification did not work for you, and as you took all your cues from me, I felt partly responsible for your disappointment. I rechecked my calculations and schematics w/ an installer I know, as well as with a Parts Express tech, and I'm confident that theoretically it was the correct procedure. I don't think you ever gave a detailed description of how it sounded afterwards, but the people I spoke with tend to think it has something to do with the poor quality of the Bose reverse-magnet design, and the 3 oz magnet they use which is supposed to drive 30-80 Hz bass waves. The magnet on a 10 in sub should weigh several pounds, not fit in the space of a film can. Unfortunetly, a better sub also means a better amp. If you get a small one (make sure it has built-in low pass) you can still fit it in the OEM spot, as I was able to do.
As far as dynamating, you won't hear a difference between one dampened door and another undampened. It involves reducing road noise and body panel vibration while driving, noise that reverberates throughout the entire car. Its like this, if all your windows are open at 80 miles an hour, and you close one rear window halfway, you might not notice a difference in the reduction of noise. Its not until you close most of the windows most of the way, or all the windows entirely, before you really notice a difference. You cannot "spot test" dynamat effectiveness. Its an all or nothing proposition.
Well, there might be a way to demonstrate that dynamat does work. Take two identical pie tins, and add just a 2x2 inch patch of dynamat to the center of one of them. Bang them each with a spoon like a gong and you'll see that the one with the dynamat makes much less noise. When I did this on my first new car, I bought a sound pressure level meter to check the before and after road noise. I went all the way; pulled the seats, carpeting, all interior trim, trunk floor/sides/lid, firewall, headliner, and door panels. Afterwards, it was between 6 and 7 dB quieter and sounded more like a full sized American car than a compact import. It makes sense, if you encase yourself in rubber, you'll hear a lot less noise. What's left is louder, less distorted music (distortion from sound intereference at competing frequencies and intensities from panel vibration/resonance).
Good luck. |
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| DaleB |
| Excellent analogy, that really requires only a little imagination to realize the concept. Wish I had thought of that when asked the same question. |
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| krammer |
The saga continues here:
http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/show...p?threadid=7245
New pictures and results after moving the speakers around.
Bruce:
Thanks for the Dynamat comments. I'm not prepared to do the entire MDX as of yet, so I'm going to hold off as it seems doing it piecemeal won't give me a noticable improvement in sound. |
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| Maik |
TheyCallMeBruce:
Thanks for your concern regarding the sub modification, but, I certainly do not harbor any ill feelings at all. I am really quite content with the sound right now, and I will likely not make any further changes. I tried the sub mod knowing full well that such things are subject to personal tastes. The twenty bucks was well worth the education I got, having never attempted such a modification before.
As for the dynamat. I would have to agree with your analysis that it is an all or nothing proposition. I really do not think that simply putting dynamat around the speaker hole will really accomplish much, and at least for me, it was a royal pain to do. I only with I had the time and the know how to put it in the doors, floor, etc. I suspect then I would find a significant difference.
Again, thanks for your assistance with my speaker upgrade, you have proven to be a valued resource.
:D |
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| TheyCallMeBruce |
| Thanks, guys.:31: |
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