| Tom-TX |
I received the following message recently. Maybe this has something to do with it:
Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show ,
and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something
like the attacks on Sept. 11 happen?"
Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful
response.
She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as
we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our
schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.
And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed
out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His
protection if we demand He leave us alone?" In light of recent events ...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered and her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school .
the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children
when they misbehave because their little personalities would be
warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son
committed suicide). An expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline
our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.
Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK.
Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be
boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.
Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what
we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them,
we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.
Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude
women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.
And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and
published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, ..they're entitled to free Speech.
Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it' just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously,anyway, so go right ahead.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no
conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it
doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread
like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass
freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace. |
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| Warzau |
I saw this on another board that gives you random fortunes after you post a message and I belive its true.
" The world isnt getting worse, the news coverage is just
getting better" |
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| hhwc |
Now you got me started...
I see a lot of bumper stickers that say "God Bless America". Does anyone wonder why should he? If America doesn't pay attention to Him, why should He pay attention to us?
Weekly I hear reports how another "separation of church and state" group has won a decision to remove another reference to God. Curious though, I've read the Constitution and I don't see "separation of church and state" anywhere...hmm... Do you think an activist judge(s) made it up? I'd like to call these people what they are, idiots. From their definition of what is constitutional or not constitutional, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution itself would be unconstitutional. How stupid is that! All the Constitution forbids is the government establishing a national religion (eg. The Chuch of England). Saying/displaying/recognizing God, Creator, and Providence is not establishing a religion! Remember, freedom of religion not from religion.
Well, because of these and other behaviors that are now 'normal' in America, it's no wonder why God isn't looking after us anymore. Look out for more diseases, natural disasters, terrorist attacks, etc. , because if we don't turn back to Him soon, His judgement will be permanent...
Depressing isn't it? |
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| BigDog |
quote:
Originally posted by hhwc
Now you got me started...
Well, because of these and other behaviors that are now 'normal' in America, it's no wonder why God isn't looking after us anymore. Look out for more diseases, natural disasters, terrorist attacks, etc. , because if we don't turn back to Him soon, His judgement will be permanent...
Depressing isn't it?
Look at history Bro, this stuff has happened throughout man's history on earth, so to that say we are worse than any other time period is very short sighted, to say the least. Let the Big Guy or Gal sort it all out on judgement day but lets keep him or her out of our government, this is last thing the world needs IMHO. |
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| R Stevens |
Tom-X and hhwc,
I have to disagree with you on this one. Yes, the USA is not perfect and maybe more of us have to dig deeper inside and get in touch with the Big Guy. But that is no excuse for a bunch of cowards to hijack four airliners and murder innocent people. Most of my life I have leaned a bit toward being a peacenik, but now I won't be satisfied until everyone of these terrorists and all of their associates are killed and/or captured by our military.
You want the freedom to live in a country and make your own choices? Then study history, put things in perspective and realize that every society has its problems. And remember also that these terrorists all claim they are doing Allah's will!!! Are those the kind of people we want running the USA? I don't think so.
Peace. |
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| DaleB |
Perfect argument for separation of church and state. Religion is something you cherish or not cherish, that is your personal right as an individual. THAT right is what is gauranteed by our forefathers.
It is your country you are fighting for, and the preservation of those rights, whether you have the deepest faith in a supreme being or NOT. If you interpert that as something different? Well, that's your right too! Nice being an American, huh?
I am sure that bothers some extreme fundamentalists that they are fighting for the rights of people who are atheists too, but so be it. If you want to get totally stressed out about such things, that's your right too. |
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| Tom-TX |
Hey... my comment was to pass on an opinion as expressed by someone else. I'm even a bit surprised I copied it since I'm not overly religious.
In my own words, my opinion is that we have become TOO concerned with what is legal rather than what is right or wrong or for that matter what makes sense. Does anyone remember morals / ethics? Worse yet it seems that there is a trend to let convenience dictate what is legal. I firmly believe in what the constitution says and the liberties it grants. ALL of them, not just the ones convenient to me or my personal causes.
R.Stevens
I hope there wasn’t anything in my post to suggest I condone any actions in the name of any religion, let alone what's being done to destroy Americans and American beliefs. Just look at the crusades. I tend to relate organized religion to morals and ethics as I do politicians to the Constitution and Bill of Rights. IMHO the organizers are far too often the ones responsible for twisting the core values for their own benefit.
When I think of a mentor of morals and ethics, then only ones that come to mind are my parents and what they taught me of God. I just hope my children feel the same about me and my wife. |
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| frostyra |
Then again, whatever happened to PUNISHING criminals? Killers and kidnappers should be put to death, and quickly, and without mercy (none of this lethal-injection bull). If the death sentence were carried out within months of the commission of the crime, and in public, wouldn't a lot of punks maybe think a bit more before they commit their heinous crimes?
When I was a kid, I'd often see in the local papers that somebody was "caught in the act," and he somehow managed to escape from the police car on the way to jail. Naturally the cops would holler (or whisper) for him to halt, and he wouldn't, so shots would be fired -- no more criminal, case closed. I kinda miss those good ol' days! |
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| R Stevens |
Tom-X,
Thanks for the clarification and please accept my apoligies. We are on the same page. |
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| DaleB |
quote:
Originally posted by Tom-TX
When I think of a mentor of morals and ethics, then only ones that come to mind are my parents and what they taught me of God. I just hope my children feel the same about me and my wife.
Ah, yes! And that is where religion, moral values, and ethics are rooted, in our family values. Those values are also protected.
Still, religious hypocrisy exits, as do non-religious people who are very moral and ethical in how they live their lives. |
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| hhwc |
Who has the authority to say what is right or wrong if not from a Supreme Being/God? If it comes from people, it is just their opinion right?
Where do you think our laws come from? Judeo-Christian principles. That is an established fact. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution pays respect to the Creator. The Ten Commandments are engraved in stone on the US Supreme Court building. If there were such an intent as 'separation of church and state' wouldn't you think that would not have been allowed? Apparently the idiotic justices didn't look at their own building before creating such an absurd ruling.
I'm just sick of anti-Christian folks using the very freedoms guaranteed to them -- "...by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." -- to destroy the foundations of this country.
No where does it force anybody to be Christian yet the very mention of Jesus offends them. Well tough, life's not fair. I'm offended by their actions but apparently that doesn't count for anything.
The U.S. was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and some people can't accept that.
Rant over! |
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| DaleB |
Actually, the principles of legislation in governing a society go back much further to Greek and Roman times, BC.
The ties to Judeo-Christian ethics were adopted as part of building this country's government during the separation from the British empire that refused people the right of religious freedom.
There are people of both extremes tearing at this country's freedom, including those doing it in the name of God.
I believe this country will stand in spite of that. Suffer, yes, but still stand for the rights of the majority which consists of people with many beliefs and aspirations who want to live in harmony with each other.
I have no rant, just opinions like everybody else. |
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| BigDog |
quote:
Originally posted by hhwc
I'm just sick of anti-Christian folks using the very freedoms guaranteed to them -- "...by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." -- to destroy the foundations of this country.
No where does it force anybody to be Christian yet the very mention of Jesus offends them. Well tough, life's not fair. I'm offended by their actions but apparently that doesn't count for anything.
The U.S. was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and some people can't accept that.
Rant over!
Well my friend, you've gone and done it :rolleyes: I have to ask you a question, so are you saying that if I don't believe your brand of religon I should have no rights? Because that's what I believe you just said. How does that make America better than any of these religious kooks around the world? I take offense that you are accusing me of "destroying the foundations of this country." I am not anti Christian, I am anti anything that alienates any of the US citizenry, and that my friend is what I read from your post.
Just remember one thing - God spelled backwards is Dog. Funny huh? I have always wondered about that :20:
Dog is my Copilot |
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| DaleB |
BTW is that Big Dog going to join you in trekking the wine country with the Bay Area owners on the 28th?
Or is he more into breweries.
He could be our mascot ! Put a forum sticker on his collar!
And if you are going, and I hope you are you need to email me your cell no. and real first name. |
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| hhwc |
Where in my post did I say you have to be Christian? These same Judeo-Christian principles came up with "freedom of religion".
My contention is religion (specifically Judaism and Christianity) had a lot to do with the founding of this country. That is the foundation of this country. For people to ignore that fact and try to erase history is wrong which is exactly what these activist groups are trying to do. I'm just saying leave it alone!
So simply, you can believe in anything you wish but leave the foundations of this country alone.
For those who believe the authority of morals/ethics don't come from a Supreme Being/God, where does it come from?
Is the Muslim belief that you should rid the world of infidels (Jews, Christians, and anyone else that are non-Muslim) morally right? If no, why not? Who's to say what is right and wrong?
That's it from me on this topic... |
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| msu79gt82 |
I am always amused by public discussions of religion. Separation of church and state is a joke. The phrase is nowhere to be found in the Declaration of Independance, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights! Period, it is not there!! Our forefathers left England for the express purpose of fleeing an oppressive State church and sought a new country where they could worship freely without State interference. The First Amendment was never intended for the government to restrict religious activity - it was intended to prevent the formation of an official State church.
Reason says there is either IS a god/deity or there is NOT a god/deity. There is no middle ground. If there is a god then that god has attributes/characteristics that are immutable. (this is not to say humans can know or understand them - that is another discussion). Clearly the fact that there are so many competeing claims for the character of this (potential) god proves that at the very least all but one (perhaps all?) are WRONG!
One thing is clear if there is a God; then God is god and we are not!! Perhaps this god does not take kindly to those who say he has no say in how our country is run? |
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