| AG02MDX |
| Why is it important to replace the drain plug washer? I can't believe is "wears out" by removing and replacing the drain plug. |
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| rvehock |
| I replace mine everytime I change my oil. If you buy your oil filters from Tim, he will include a new washer with every oil filter. |
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| AG02MDX |
I know Honda filters come with a new drain plug washer. The maintenance schedues at both my Honda and Acura dealers specify oil changes include "replacement drain plug washer." But, Why? The washer does look worn out. Heck, I actually reused them...have I shortened the life of my engine?
So why all the fuss about replacing the drain plug washer? What am I missing. I'm sure there is an explaination. Can some on help? |
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| rvehock |
| I think it because when you torque down the drain plug, the washer "crushes" ever so slightly. You probably do not even notice it, but it is just good insurance to replace it. Heck in my younger days I had a 1985 Toyota 4X4 truck and I put 120,000 miles on the same oil plug washer with no leaks or problems!!! |
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| TheyCallMeBruce |
quote:
Originally posted by AG02MDX
I know Honda filters come with a new drain plug washer. The maintenance schedues at both my Honda and Acura dealers specify oil changes include "replacement drain plug washer." But, Why? The washer does look worn out. Heck, I actually reused them...have I shortened the life of my engine?
So why all the fuss about replacing the drain plug washer? What am I missing. I'm sure there is an explaination. Can some on help?
Long, long ago;
Drain plug washers were made of rubber or metal coated with rubber at the edges, and were re-usable, but not always durable due to the heat, compression, and being smeared in opposite directions by torque-ing. As a result of several removals and re-uses, the rubber portion gets torn, disintegrates and the auto manufacturer is accused of producing leaky engines. Bad for business.
Here comes crushable soft-metal washers to the rescue: made of zinc, magnesium, copper or a nickel alloy of any of the three. By crushing the washer between the plug and pan, you get a seal that will not deteriorate with heat or time (time being an issue if your service provider exclusively uses suction devices to remove the old oil and will never remove the drain plug, and many upscale dealers have begun to institute this practice because it is actually faster and less messier than removing the drain plug). And most importantly, you ensure that a leak will never occur because instead of re-using mangled, rubber coated washers, you must, I repeat, must, replace a crushable metallic washer each and everytime it is used, no exceptions allowed (assuming you follow written directions in all factory and after-market service manuals).
Once the metallic washer is crushed, it will not crush properly again to the minute irregularities of the contact surfaces on the plug head and the pan. You can look at a used washer and see that it has an impression of the surface it was crushed against. It will not go back into exactly the same position as before, even if it sticks to the pan, as the plug bolt will not be turned to exactly the same position as before.
Good news is that these washers are extremely cheap, if you know where to get them. Decide what metal you want, probably magnesium (somebody tell me if I'm wrong), and go buy a bag of several dozen 14 mm units for a buck or two at a steel and pipe supply store. Otherwise I think the Acura retail is about $.80 each. Automotive parts stores sell them too, but probably in a variety bag, such that it would cost you more to buy it there than at your dealer. I don't like removing my plug, so I've been using a Fumatomo valve and lever assembly for all my cars for the past 18 years. Keeps the mechanics from stripping my pan threads as well, such as when they use a miserable impact wrench to spin on the plug out of laziness. |
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| AG02MDX |
| Ah! Now I understand. Thanks for taking time to give such a detailed explaination. Next time I change oil I measure a washer before installing...then measure again after 3,000 miles later. I'll be interested to see how much crush occurs. |
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| DaleB |
Another plus for that anonymous dealer RobSJ works for.
When I told the service writer I have my own oil and filter, he asked if I had remembered the washer. Yes, I told him, taped to the side of the filter. "thumbs up!" |
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| xcel |
Hi All:
___I heard of the new washer on filter a few years ago but I still have to wonder if it is truly needed? I liked to hear that DaleB’s shop/RobSJ’s employer uses this regiment but again, 160,000 miles on an 87 Mercury Sable LS that had a long life but terrible end as a slide for the kids (another story …) and the 92 Previa LE which is still going strong after 165,000 with no apparent oil abnormalities using the same drain plug washer that came off the assembly line. I only change the oil/filter ~ ½ the time and I have never seen the local oil change shop ask for a new one nor have I ever installed a new one … Now that I have posted this, I think I will go get a new washer for the Previa’s next oil change as I just jinxed myself ;)
As an edit, boy did I blow that one …
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| DaleB |
| I did mean the drain plug washer, the oil filter comes with it's own washer....... |
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| xcel |
Hi DaleB:
___Edited for correctness … The Fram’s I have always installed in the past have a rubber gasket as all filters I have used in the past. After seeing the Oil filter site linked from this forum the other day, I think I will be looking at something other than Fram’s from now on as well.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| ardvarkus |
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Another plus for that anonymous dealer RobSJ works for.
When I told the service writer I have my own oil and filter, he asked if I had remembered the washer. Yes, I told him, taped to the side of the filter. "thumbs up!"
Old news, but when I took my X in for service at Lasher in Sacramento (Dec 2000) they didn't replace the VTM4 washer with a new one. Claimed it wasn't needed. I insisted, then they discovered they didn't have them in stock...
Not much discussion anymore- generally they get replaced. (Look at your paperwork to make sure it is listed.)
BYW, even if it wasn't "necessary' from a technical viewpoint- if Acura requires it, I do it- no quibbling if a warranty issue comes up.
Ard |
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| TheRobSJ |
quote:
Originally posted by xcel
Hi DaleB:
___Edited for correctness … The Fram’s I have always installed in the past have a rubber gasket as all filters I have used in the past. After seeing the Oil filter site linked from this forum the other day, I think I will be looking at something other than Fram’s from now on as well.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Out of all the non-OEM filters out there, if there's one I can count on seeing drop of oil hanging off of due to gasket seepeage...it's a Fram. K&N oil filters like to seep alot too.
For Honda's there really isn't much better out there than the original Honda filter.
Rob |
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| deltajetfixer |
When taking a "set", crush washers, be they copper, aluminum, or whatever, will cause you to OVERTORQUE your drainbolt if reused...
Buy a bunch of 'em next time at the dealer or from Tim. I think they're 0.10 apiece? |
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| mgmdx |
quote:
Originally posted by xcel
Hi DaleB:
___Edited for correctness … The Fram’s I have always installed in the past have a rubber gasket as all filters I have used in the past. After seeing the Oil filter site linked from this forum the other day, I think I will be looking at something other than Fram’s from now on as well.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
quote:
Originally posted by TheRobSJ
Out of all the non-OEM filters out there, if there's one I can count on seeing drop of oil hanging off of due to gasket seepeage...it's a Fram. K&N oil filters like to seep alot too.
For Honda's there really isn't much better out there than the original Honda filter.
Rob
I respectfully disagree. I have been using Fram oil filters on all my cars for over 20 years. I never had any problems, the filters never leaked. If there is a drop of oil that's hanging off your Fram filter, it is due to improper installation rather than the filter itself.
There is an Oil Filter Study that has been previously discussed elsewhere on this site.
My comments regarding this particular study are as follows:
1. The author of the study indicates that "this is not a scientific test", and that he "make[s] no claims as to any filter material shown here with respect to flow or filtration". Moreover, he admits that "opinions stated in the Comments of each filter summary and the Conclusions section are just that, opinions".
2. Author's evaluation of a Honda filter (made in Canada) indicates that "This filter, though, when opened, is identical in construction to a Fram. Same "fuzzy" media, dent from string in media, glued cardboard end caps, bypass valve...".
3. Author's evaluation of a Honda filter (made in USA) further notes that "The US media looks much, much worse than the Fram. The media is noticeably "fuzzy" with small fibers protruding out from every angle. ...the furry nature of the media makes me question how long it lasts and what it will release into the oil system."
4. The author of the study concludes that "Essentially you will have to decide for yourself." If the highest perceived quality filter is what you are looking for, then the OEM Honda filter is certainly not the answer.
I agree with DaleB's comment made in one of the previous oil filter discussion threads that "Changing them [oil filters] every time is probably more important than the brand, as long you buy name brands." I think what's also more important than the oil or filter brand used is the reasonable and consistent maintenance interval.
quote:
Originally posted by deltajetfixer
When taking a "set", crush washers, be they copper, aluminum, or whatever, will cause you to OVERTORQUE your drainbolt if reused...
Usually, the washer is supposed to compress (crush) to help prevent oil leaks. The washer used on the MDX drain plug (and differential) is not a compression washer but rather a regular washer that does not compress. I question the value of changing it at every oil change. I have been doing oil changes myself on all my cars for the past 20+ years, and have been reusing the same washers (unless it was a "crush" type washer) with no leaks or any other problems.
To conclude, as with any other products, using specific oil and filter brand is a matter of personal preference. As I indicated above, I have been using Fram filters and retaining original washers (unless they were "crush" type) on all my cars for the past 20+ years without any problems at all. One of my past cars ('77 280Z) went for over 200,000 miles with regular oil change intervals (using Fram) before I decided to sell it. So for me, Fram oil filter and original non-compression washer works fine, and I plan on using it on my MDX. |
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