| rabreu |
| HOW MUCH ARE WE LOOKING AT SPENDING FOR THE 15K SCHEDULED MAINTENACE? |
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| MGTD |
I paid $181. Probably expensive for an oil change but I think it is good for the x to be looked at periodically and the dealer is the right person to do it.
Chris |
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| frostyra |
I just got my 15K maint done today -- using the SEVERE schedule -- for $249.88 (incl. tax, etc., of course), as follows:
Electronic balance 4 tires $19.95
15000 mile maintenance incl oil, filt, and washer $138.45
VTM-4 fluid change, cplt. $55.71
Replace air filter $30.86
I had it done at my Honda dealer, who has been stocking VTM-4 fluid since the X came out. Reason? Honda dealer is much closer than the Acura dealer. The Honda and Acura dealers here are under the same corporate umbrella (as are MB, Lexus, Toyota, L-M, Mitsu, ad infinitum -- no Yugo, though). |
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| mdxxxx |
quote:
Originally posted by frostyra
I just got my 15K maint done today -- using the SEVERE schedule -- for $249.88 (incl. tax, etc., of course), as follows:
Electronic balance 4 tires $19.95
15000 mile maintenance incl oil, filt, and washer $138.45
VTM-4 fluid change, cplt. $55.71
Replace air filter $30.86
I had it done at my Honda dealer, who has been stocking VTM-4 fluid since the X came out. Reason? Honda dealer is much closer than the Acura dealer. The Honda and Acura dealers here are under the same corporate umbrella (as are MB, Lexus, Toyota, L-M, Mitsu, ad infinitum -- no Yugo, though).
I wish someone would tell Oakland Honda that the dealers are under the same corporate umbrella. I inquired regarding he 15k service, and was told that the only non Honda cars they service had to be purchased on their used car lot, because they only have one tech who works on non Honda, and they stock only Honda parts, yada yada yada... I smell BS...:3: |
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| JeffK |
Just a different point of view:
Why do you permit the dealer to do work beyond what the owners manual requires?
You can tell by driving if the tires are out of balance. They were balanced at the factory and if they are on the same rims and have not thrown a weight there is absolutely no reasons to re-balance.
I have seen so many tires in balance become out of balance after a "re-balancing".
Perhaps you can explain to me why a oil change and filter should cost $138. My Acura dealer just sent me a coupon for this work: $24.95
Looks as if you overpaid about $125.
JeffK |
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| ECON1 |
| Thought I'd pass on my experience. Just had a private shop (all ASE certified techs, owner drives Acuras and seems very knowledgable) do my 15,000 mile service today. I furnished the oil (Mobil 1); they furnished the oil filter ($6), VTM-4 fluid ($17.73), and labor. Rotated tires, etc. Total bill with tax came to $71.99. Since I trust them, I'll probably let them do it rather than do it myself; it seems to be a pretty reasonable price. (Earlier they replaced the timing belt, water pump, thermostat, belts, and appropriate gaskets on my daughter's 1995 Integra for just under $600.) (Seem to be some advantages to living in the midwest!) |
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| RobK |
quote:
Originally posted by JeffK
Just a different point of view:
You can tell by driving if the tires are out of balance. They were balanced at the factory and if they are on the same rims and have not thrown a weight there is absolutely no reasons to re-balance.
I have seen so many tires in balance become out of balance after a "re-balancing".
JeffK
JeffK, your advice is wrong again. I'm glad you're not my mechanic. I have seen so many customers come to my shop with the original tires and wheels (and weights) on their car, and find that the tires are WAY out of balance, causing severe damage to the tire tread. No other steering/suspension parts were worn out. If tires never need to be rebalanced from the factory, how do you explain this?
Very rarely will a tire wear evenly across the whole tread around the whole tire for its life. This is due to constant turns, scrapes, etc while tires are on the front of a vehicle, in addition to minute inconsistencies in the tire itself.
By the time you "feel" the tires out of balance, they are out by at least an ounce, usually more. By that time you will have likely caused the tread to become "choppy" which takes a long time to correct while driving, if it can even BE corrected. A tire that is out of balance even a half ounce, which doesn't sound like much, is a LOT when you consider the tire spinning at 70mph. That creates a lot of force on one section of the tire over and over again.
A balance should be done every other rotation whether you think it needs it or not. This will ensure the tire stays good for the longest period of time possible. |
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| JeffK |
Dear RobK:
The more I read your posts, the more I get the impression that you are habitually doing unnecessary work.
You state:
JeffK, your advice is wrong again. I'm glad you're not my mechanic. I have seen so many customers come to my shop with the original tires and wheels (and weights) on their car, and find that the tires are WAY out of balance, causing severe damage to the tire tread. No other steering/suspension parts were worn out. If tires never need to be rebalanced from the factory, how do you explain this?
If there is severe wear, the tires were either under/overinflated, out of balance, or out of alignment.
If there is no wear then the tires are balanced, properly inflated and in align. Therefore, there is no need to re-balance a balanced tire or align a properly aligned car!
You state:
Very rarely will a tire wear evenly across the whole tread around the whole tire for its life. This is due to constant turns, scrapes, etc while tires are on the front of a vehicle, in addition to minute inconsistencies in the tire itself.
Again pumping up unnecessary work. If the tire is balanced, properly inflated and aligned, the tire will wear evenly.
You state:
By the time you "feel" the tires out of balance, they are out by at least an ounce, usually more. By that time you will have likely caused the tread to become "choppy" which takes a long time to correct while driving, if it can even BE corrected. A tire that is out of balance even a half ounce, which doesn't sound like much, is a LOT when you consider the tire spinning at 70mph. That creates a lot of force on one section of the tire over and over again.
Quite the contrary: Any astute driver should notice wheels out of balance at 60 mph.
You conclude:
A balance should be done every other rotation whether you think it needs it or not. This will ensure the tire stays good for the longest period of time possible
I think all of us can think of better ways to throw away money! |
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| RobK |
quote:
Originally posted by JeffK
Dear RobK:
The more I read your posts, the more I get the impression that you are habitually doing unnecessary work.
You're entitled to your opinion. And the more I read your posts, the more I realize that you are one of those types of people who think that nearly every recommendation made by a mechanic is a ripoff and overpriced. Usually that is because of fear, which ultimately is because of lack of education in the subject matter.
quote:
If there is severe wear, the tires were either under/overinflated, out of balance, or out of alignment.
If there is no wear then the tires are balanced, properly inflated and in align. Therefore, there is no need to re-balance a balanced tire or align a properly aligned car!
The idea of preventive maintenance applies here. At my shop we stress preventive maintenance to all customers. It is always cheaper in the long run to properly maintain a car than it is to do nothing and wait for a failure.
The same applies for tires. Over and over again, I can put what appears to be a good tire from a car with very low mileage on the balancer and find it over 1/2 ounce off on either side. I am doing the customer a disservice if I say the wheel is ok and don't rebalance it.
quote:
Again pumping up unnecessary work. If the tire is balanced, properly inflated and aligned, the tire will wear evenly.
You're mostly right - in a perfect world, if a tire is balanced, properly inflated, and the car properly aligned, a tire will wear evenly. The problem is, in the real world, most people do not keep the tires properly inflated, and they do not keep the car properly aligned. So these factors can cause an out-of-balance tire. Am I ripping off the customer by recommending a tire balance then, to try to extend the life of their tires (by the way, we sell tires, so if I were trying to rip off the customer as you suggest, I would wait until the tire is ruined and sell them another tire).
What you also fail to understand is that tires do not go down the road perfectly straight across the whole tread 100% of the time. We go over bumps, we turn the wheels, we scrape the tread (as in turning the wheel at a dead stop), we go around corners, we hit curbs, etc. This is what causes the uneven treadwear. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that JeffK. Over time the uneven tread causes the wheel to be out of balance.
quote:
Quite the contrary: Any astute driver should notice wheels out of balance at 60 mph.
I have to tell you, most of my customers are not "astute" drivers. They are people concentrating on their own careers or families. They trust me to make recommendations to them that will save them money, and prevent breakdowns. If you consider that type of "caring about the customer" as "pumping unnecessary work" then so be it.
Most people will not notice a wheel that is out-of-balance by less than 1 ounce. The suspension is able to mask the imbalance. Yet that 3/4 ounce, over time, can result in a choppy tread and a ruined tire.
quote:
I think all of us can think of better ways to throw away money!
Again, how you maintain your vehicle is your business. I can point you to as many sources as you want that will explain the importance of routine rotation and balancing. In fact, here is one right now:
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/tr/tr119932.htm
Here's a quote from that site:
Balancing provides a smoother ride by minimizing tire bounce. This helps improve traction, steering response and control and extends the life of the tires. But no matter how carefully the tires are balanced, they’ll eventually lose their balance. As the tread wears, the distribution of weight around the circumference of a tire changes altering the balance of the tire and wheel assembly. Eventually the tire may have to be rebalanced because only a quarter ounce of imbalance can create a noticeable vibration.
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| xcel |
Hi RobK:
___Even though I find Jeff’s advice a bit overbearing sometimes, I post with a similar tone and believe in and perform most of what has been said myself … Having driven over 600,000 miles in my short 21 years behind the wheel, tire balancing and even rotation (depends on the car) is way more then needed in a lot of cases in my own experience. The 92 Previa never needed either and went to 65,000 on the OEM’s twice before finally getting rid of her at a hair over 170,000. The 87 Mercury Sable did the same with almost as many miles. The 91 Accord is still with us without a tire balance or rotation with over 160,000 as well … Just simple tire replacements and balancing when installed and away they go. The 03 Corolla needed a rotation but not a balance in its relatively new 54,000 miles now.
___As it stands, I believe many are paying way more then necessary for the maintenance of their semi-lux automobiles including the most babied automobile I have ever heard of in the MDX. Not that you cannot skip the maintenance but $200 to upwards of $900 have been posted for 15 and 30K maintenance service from the stealers! I don’t know how many times I have to post about Wal-Mart’s $27.00 5W-30 Mobil1 synthetic and a Supertech filter change out but here it is again. I just had it performed on the X not 3 days ago at the 15K number myself. The VTM will be after the Holiday and so will my own check of everything else … Washer fluid is only a few bucks so DIY and in doing so, you will have enough left over to top off your other vehicles. In the larger scheme of things, you will save a ton of cash and have enough left over to go to a play or movies with the family afterwards.
___Good Luck and Happy Holidays to all.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| DaleB |
Where I go they only charge for an alignment IF it needs it. But it's put on the rack and checked, the mechanic does not just run his hand across the tread. Most shops charge as soon as it's on the rack, in or out of alignment.
Normally, you can go quite a ways without rebalancing unless you have had a tire repaired and/or remounted, or you lost a wheel weight.
It is probably something worth doing every other rotation, (15K) unless you have signs of a problem.
My opinion is just based on years of experience driving many different types of vehicles, and I am a stickler for good maintenance, long tire wear, and a smooth running vehicle. There is nothing more important than tires & brakes, it does not matter what you drive. |
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| JeffK |
Dear xcel
Thank you and AMEN! |
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| RobK |
Hello xcel!
quote:
Originally posted by xcel
Having driven over 600,000 miles in my short 21 years behind the wheel, tire balancing and even rotation (depends on the car) is way more then needed in a lot of cases in my own experience. The 92 Previa never needed either and went to 65,000 on the OEM’s twice before finally getting rid of her at a hair over 170,000. The 87 Mercury Sable did the same with almost as many miles. The 91 Accord is still with us without a tire balance or rotation with over 160,000 as well … Just simple tire replacements and balancing when installed and away they go. The 03 Corolla needed a rotation but not a balance in its relatively new 54,000 miles now.
Are you saying you drove your vehicle 65,000 miles without a single rotation? After seeing as many vehicles as I have, I've never seen one go that long and still have even tread wear on the front and rear tires. Without exception the front tires will wear significantly faster than the rears for obvious reasons. If it is true that you went 65,000 miles without a rotation, perhaps you could have gone to 90,000 had you kept them properly rotated. Also, the kind of driving you do will affect how the tires wear. A lot of straight, highway driving will allow a tire to wear better and more evenly than if you do a lot of city driving.
Any tire manufacturer and vehicle manufacturer tells you to rotate at a minimum every 6-10,000.
quote:
___As it stands, I believe many are paying way more then necessary for the maintenance of their semi-lux automobiles including the most babied automobile I have ever heard of in the MDX. Not that you cannot skip the maintenance but $200 to upwards of $900 have been posted for 15 and 30K maintenance service from the stealers! I don’t know how many times I have to post about Wal-Mart’s $27.00 5W-30 Mobil1 synthetic and a Supertech filter change out but here it is again. I just had it performed on the X not 3 days ago at the 15K number myself.
I don't disagree that dealers are charging very high prices for these services. I've seen many cars come to us after having "scheduled maintenance" at the dealer only to find things like severely cracked belts, lights burned out, batteries that test weak, etc. And to think the customer paid hundreds of dollars for the dealer to inspect the vehicle!! Some of the prices I've seen here for 15k services have been ridiculous.
That being said, as you say, that doesn't mean the maintenance services are to be neglected. This is an argument that can go on forever between mechanics and non-mechanics. The mechanic will tell you over and over that preventive maintenance, even some services that aren't in your owner's manual, will save you money in the long run. And we as mechanics can typically make better recommendations to you than your owner's manual (an example of this is below).
But then there's people who think that a mechanic's recommendations and/or preventive maintenance is a ripoff and is only a way for the dealership or shop owner to pad your bill.
Example...Just yesterday I had a nice young lady in the shop who said her heat didn't work. We did a diagnostic on her '00 Bravada and found a heater core that was 100% plugged because the coolant looked like mud. This is a vehicle that contains GM's new Dex-Cool coolant, a coolant that is supposed to last 5 years or 100,000 miles. The first cooling flush isn't recommended by GM until 100,000 miles. But any good mechanic will tell you Dex-Cool is a joke and doesn't last any longer than the traditional green coolant. The estimate to repair her truck came to about $800 (it's literally a 7-8 hour job to do). Had she listened to our recommendations about keeping the cooling system flushed every 2 years or 30-40,000 miles this problem would never have happened. She could have saved $720 by keeping the system flushed as we recommended. If that customer were JeffK when I was making the flush recommendation at 40k miles, he probably would have said I was trying to rip him off because GM says it lasts 100,000 miles.
What does this have to do with tires and balancing? Our experience as mechanics tells us that if you keep the tires properly inflated, rotated and balanced every so often, you will extend the life of the tire and reduce the chances of a failure.
Sorry to bore you with such a long post :D |
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| RobK |
Hi DaleB!
quote:
Originally posted by DaleB
Where I go they only charge for an alignment IF it needs it. But it's put on the rack and checked, the mechanic does not just run his hand across the tread. Most shops charge as soon as it's on the rack, in or out of alignment.
We have an alignment inspection service which is a complete check of the steering/suspension components as well as hooking the alignment heads up to the vehicle. If it doesn't need an alignment, the customer just pays the minimal inspection charge. We have to do this because the technician spends a significant amount of time doing this inspection, usually at least 45 minutes. Setting up the heads on the vehicle and compensating them takes a long time...
quote:
Normally, you can go quite a ways without rebalancing unless you have had a tire repaired and/or remounted, or you lost a wheel weight.
It is probably something worth doing every other rotation, (15K) unless you have signs of a problem.
My opinion is just based on years of experience driving many different types of vehicles, and I am a stickler for good maintenance, long tire wear, and a smooth running vehicle. There is nothing more important than tires & brakes, it does not matter what you drive.
I think you would be surprised how fast your tires go out of balance. I did my first rotation on my MDX recently (10,000 miles) and put all 4 wheels on the balancer. Three of the four wheels were out of balance at least .25 ounce. And that's on a new vehicle with 10,000 miles. Think how much worse it gets with a higher mileage vehicle with worn out shocks/struts and other suspension components!! Next time you have your tires rotated (if you have it done at a shop, that is) ask them to throw one of your front tires on the balancer and see how it comes out. I think you might be surprised.
I like what you say about brakes and tires, they are so important to your safety that one should take their maintenance needs very seriously.
Hope you had a good Thanksgiving! |
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| xcel |
Hi RobK:
___Yes indeed and I never had any problems until I had to rotate the tires on the 03 Corolla at 40,000 miles. All of our vehicles made it to their mileage limits without problems with tread wear even across all 4 tires … And you are incorrect to say that the fronts will wear significantly faster then the rears in all cases on all vehicles. The Accord and Sable were front drivers. The Previa a rear driver with no significant wear differences from F to R over the lives of those tires. That means no bouncing down the road with 60,000 miles on them either. I would say you are over maintaining your vehicles but that is between you and either your pocket book or time. As for time to rotate, I think I recall OEM’s and the Lube places telling you to change your oil every 3,000 miles as well? They must know better, right? In regards to tires, I just watch the tires themselves and haven’t ever had a problem until the GY’s on the 03 Corolla a few months ago.
___As for the heater core/coolant problem, what substance or material was in there to turn it to mud? I have never had that problem and never flushed any vehicle because the coolant has always looked clean and the right color. I guess you could say I saved the cost of a flush every 30 to 40K miles … That means I have saved the time, effort, and the pollution of at least 15 coolant flushes! It sounds like the heater core or block itself was disintegrating but who am I to say?
___Lastly, in regards to proper tire inflation … Have you ever heard of the Honda Insight and its 165/65R14 Bridgestone RE92’s? Most non-enthusiast Insighter’s and older Prius owners receive 15 to 30,000 miles out of them when inflated to the manufacturers spec. These come as OEM on older Toyota Camry’s, Prius’, and Honda Insight’s. Guess what happens when the enthusiast Insighter’s and Prius owners inflate them to 50 #’s? That’s right, 50 #’s! 6 #’s above maximum recommended pressure? Nothing! Some have received 80,000 miles out of them at that pressure and receive stupendous fuel economy at those pressures in the process. The rides a bit harsh of course but no one is dropping aluminum suspension components or breaking aluminum frames (Insight’s only) and such. I started running 47.5 #’s in the GY Integrity’s a few weeks ago and tire wear appears to be evening out on the Corolla instead of the outside edge wear common on the Insight’s, Camry’s, and older Prius’ w/ the Bridgestone’s as well as the GY’s on my Corolla. It has helped me maintain my record fuel economy through the late fall season with temp’s in the high 20’s to low 50’s as well. If you want more info about tire inflation, I made a post with a quote from a tire expert of sorts from an Edmunds Prius forum just this week. Great info about why the OEM states a particular tire inflation pressure in harmony with the suspension for ride comfort and safety. In the case of the Corolla, it handles better then the trucks so I will take the fuel economy and sharper turning capability over the slight drop in braking distance any time. I will not recommend this for anyone else however.
___Did I mention I run 12,500 miles between 5W-30 Mobil1 synthetic and Walmart Supertech oil filter changes on the Corolla? It runs a 180 mile + commute daily so the change out could probably go much longer as well …
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| RobK |
quote:
Originally posted by xcel
Hi RobK:
even across all 4 tires … And you are incorrect to say that the fronts will wear significantly faster then the rears in all cases on all vehicles. The Accord and Sable were front drivers. The Previa a rear driver with no significant wear differences from F to R over the lives of those tires. That means no bouncing down the road with 60,000 miles on them either. I would say you are over
Sorry, if I said the fronts will always wear more than the rears on all vehicles at all times, I misspoke. It does not apply to all vehicles by any means. Mainly front wheel drive vehicles.
quote:
___As for the heater core/coolant problem, what substance or material was in there to turn it to mud? I have never had that problem and never flushed any vehicle because the coolant has always looked clean and the right color. I guess you could say I saved the cost of a flush every 30 to 40K miles … That means I have saved the time, effort, and the pollution of at least 15 coolant flushes! It sounds like the heater core or block itself was disintegrating but who am I to say?
The problem with any fluid in your vehicle is that it breaks down over time and begins to do damage to the parts that it is in contact with. In the case of coolant, it tends to turn acidic after about 2 years and therefore begins to eat away at water pump seals, engine blocks, heater cores, radiators, etc. As the coolant is flowing through the passages in the block and water pump, tiny invisible particles act like sandpaper. As more and more metallic material comes off these components the coolant loses its corrosion inhibitor capabilities and turns rusty, eventually looking like mud.
You cannot tell the condition of coolant by color only, as you indicate. We use a chemical test strip that tests two things. First it tests temperature protection, and more importantly, pH. The lower the pH the more acidic the coolant and the more damage it will do to your vehicle.
In the example of Dex-Cool, as far as I know, nobody is really sure what causes the mud buildup...GM says its because of faulty radiator caps, but I have seen cars with such mud, tested the cap and found them to hold the adequate pressure. So I really don't have any idea what causes it, but I know the damaging effects of it when I see it...In fact there is a class-action lawsuit against GM for this Dex-Cool problem right now.
The fact that you have never had a coolant flush done and you haven't had any problems as a result, is what I call luck!! The #1 cause of breakdowns on the road is cooling system related. I think it's a wise decision to spend a little money in maintenance than to spend a whole lot in repairs down the road. And Murphy's law says that a breakdown will occur at the absolute worst time, and in the absolute worst place!
This discussion sure has gotten away from the original tire rotate/balance topic hasn't it!! Sorry, didn't mean to do that. Just trying to show things from a different point of view. Nobody will ever convince me that it's a waste of money to at a minimum, follow the maintenance schedule put forth by the manufacturer. And that includes periodic flushes, rotations, balances, and inspections. For most people I think it's a wise decision to find a shop that you can trust, that does quality work, and work with them to devise a preventive maintenance plan. Because most people don't care how their car works, they just want to get from point A to point B without a breakdown.
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving!:) :) |
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| xcel |
Hi RobK:
___I won’t say you are wrong in the case of minimal or maximum maintenance schedules but periodic inspections are as always prudent and fluid swaps/change outs and flushes are a good thing for most. As for the coolant flushes and being lucky? No way. You don’t get lucky after 600,000 miles. Just watch and if all looks Ok, it will be Ok in my book. I have always used low resistivity DI water in a half/half mix w/ antifreeze for any top offs and this alone will save the metal and seal contact due to a lack of silicates vs. common tap. I wonder how many mechanics have access to low resistivity DI themselves? The number one coolant related road breakdowns are more then likely thermostats and broken hoses and not coolant chemistry although I do not have any knowledge or numbers to back this statement up. Well common Tap will certainly take the seals out after a few years …
___As for Thanksgiving and such, yes I did and I hope you did as well ;)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
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| RobK |
Xcel:
quote:
Originally posted by xcel
way. You don’t get lucky after 600,000 miles. Just watch and if all looks Ok, it will be Ok in my book. I have always used low resistivity DI water in a half/half mix w/ antifreeze for any top offs and this alone will save the metal and seal contact due to a lack of silicates vs. common tap. I wonder how many mechanics have access to low resistivity DI themselves? The number one coolant related road breakdowns are more then likely thermostats and broken hoses and not coolant chemistry although I do not have any knowledge or numbers to back this statement up. Well common Tap will certainly take the seals out after a few years …
See, here is where you differ from the rest of the public and you're right, is most likely the reason you have not suffered a coolant-related breakdown. You maintain your coolant using DI water/quality coolant and constantly keep an eye on levels and top off when necessary (btw, you should not have to keep topping off coolant - if you find the level low, try a new radiator cap first).
Many people thoroughly neglect their coolant and other systems under the hood. By the time the car shows up in my shop, the coolant level might be low, it's rusty colored, muddy with radiator or heater core partially plugged, etc...If it tests bad, we will always recommend a flush whether the maint schedule says so or not. |
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